Frequently Asked Question: Why Is Incest Illegal?

It shouldn’t be illegal anywhere, as you’ll see. As always, we note that we are talking about consensual incest, such as between consenting adults and between minors close in age. We are not talking about anything involving coercion or force or molestation. There are laws against rape, assault, and molestation, and they should remain. We are talking about consensual incest, consanguineous sex and marriage, and consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not.

Short answer: It isn’t illegal everywhere, but where it is, it is the lingering result of sex-police holdovers, superstition, prejudice, and legislative inertia.

Long answer:



A significant part of the reason is that some cultures have an ancient taboo against incest, which begs the question, “Why is incest taboo?”

There seems to be more than one plausible reason why some cultures have had an incest taboo, in addition to protecting the power of the leaders.

1) The taboo appears to be an adoption as law or culture of the biological Westermarck effect, which is a common experience but not one experienced by everyone. Because of this effect, many people develop an avoidance of their close family members as sexual partners, and people have often expected that everyone feels the same way they do, and in many cases try to discourage people from acting differently than they do. But for those who, due to separation or some other reason, don’t experience the Westermarck effect, the bond becomes especially strong if it grows into a consanguinamorous one. It could be that if nobody had experienced the Westermarck effect, most people wouldn’t have ever “left the nest” (unless driven out by the dominant male) and the human race would have had a harder time developing genetic diversity, which was very important to survival when the human population was low. Without a growing and genetically diverse population, the entire population could have easily been wiped out by one disease. We hardly have that problem anymore. So in that respect, the Westermarck effect is vestigial and the taboo is no longer needed. (Note that the need for a growing population was also important when everything was accomplished through much physical labor, requiring many people. This was also one of the reasons why some cultures discouraged same-gender pairing that excluded males from bonding with females and making babies.)

2) Also, in patriarchal societies, it was common to trade daughters away in a business deal or to form alliances with other clans or nations. Especially if virginity was valued in new brides, it didn’t help matters if she was in love with, and making love with, her brother. But as with the previous reason, life has changed much and fewer segments of humanity are trading daughters like bargaining chips.

3) When the entire town or village was expected to attend the same church or temple, the taboo was reinforced if that religion had a prohibition against it. But in many places, this is no longer the case.

Incest was one of many things prohibited in the ancient nation of Israel, per the Torah. Church and political authorities have found incest prohibitions useful not only as part of overall control of sexuality, but for making accusations against opponents and the inconvenient (and how does one prove that they didn’t have sex with someone else?)… and to prevent any one other family from building up and retaining too much power. While royals in Egypt, Hawaii, Europe, and elsewhere married siblings, cousins, and other relatives to retain power, they often  denied other people that right for the same reason.

The religion-imposed taboo should not be underestimated, and leads us into the Other Reasons Incest is Illegal in Some Places.

In many places, there has been an official national or state religion, perhaps with a religious organization having at least some direct influence on the laws. Even in the US, where the Constitution now guarantees freedom of religion and there has been a firmly established separation of church and state, some states were originally colonies established with their own official churches. New states often set up their laws by copying from existing states, and the US has had some Puritan origins, later Victorian influence, and so forth. Famously, alcohol was banned under Prohibition less than a hundred years ago. Before that, women couldn’t even vote and there were many restrictions placed on women that were not placed on men, and thus there was gender inequality under the law and a woman was more or less the property of her father or brother until or unless she married, at which time she became the property of her husband.

Female schoolteachers were expected to abstain from sex or resign if they married. Female pageant contestants had to swear that they were virgins. Until recently, it was common for college dormitory buildings (if not the college itself) to be segregated by gender, complete with curfews and supervisors to try to make sure that students, who were 18 years and older, were not having sex (heterosexual, anyway). Innkeepers, landlords, and property sellers would routinely (often by law) refuse to accommodate or do business with unmarried, mixed-gendered couples.

Boys and young men routinely faced criminal charges for consensual sex with females (or men of any age could be civilly charged with “breach of promise”.)

It was common to have laws against anything but heterosexual intercourse between a husband and a wife. That meant oral sex between a husband and wife was technically illegal, as was any gay or lesbian sex (gay bars were raided by police), unmarried sex or cohabitation; even sex toys and birth control have been illegal in some places. There are still places in the US where someone can be sued for “alienation of affection” for having sex with a married person. Never mind that, even where illegal, brothels have always existed, and fathers have taken their sons to them for their son to have pleasant sexual encounter with a professional, and have mingled with people in power as fellow customers. Never mind that quietly having lovers on the side has been something that has always taken place.

There have also been, and in many ways remain, laws against and restrictions on various forms of dancing, nudity, “crossdressing,” and erotica.

With this sex-negative attitude, it isn’t surprising that there have been laws against incest. What may be surprising is that such laws have remained on the books. There has been a progression of civil rights in places like the US that is moving towards an adult having the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults, but we’re still not there. Loving v. Virginia struck down bans on (heterosexual, monogamous) interracial marriages. The Lawrence v. Texas decision struck down laws against gay sex and in 2015 the limited monogamous same-sex freedom to marry became nationwide in the US. Cases regarding polyamory are currently winding their way through US courts.

In order for remaining laws against consensual incest to be removed, we'll likely need a good test case for the courts. What that would require is a respectable and otherwise law-abiding (and attractive wouldn’t hurt) long-term consanguinamorous couple to fight a state law against consensual incest. The catch-22 is that since people can be, and are, prosecuted for engaging in this consensual relationship, lovers have a strong motivation to hide these relationships, and that is a hindrance to getting the laws changed. It would help if a couple in a state, such as Rhode Island, with no law against consensual incest, applied for a marriage license and subsequently got the courts to overturn prohibitions on consanguineous marriages. However, in addition to fear of prosecution and other legal problems, some people who are, or have been, involved in consanguinamory would prefer the law and/or the taboo remain in place, either because they like being the rebel, they are self-loathing, or they can’t (anymore) have what they want and they don’t want anyone else to have it, either. But they are the minority; most people involved in these relationships very much want their rights.

Throughout all of history, around the world, royal or peasants, urban or royal, rich or poor, there have been close relatives engaging in experimentation or having lifelong spousal-type relationships, and everything in between. You know people who have been involved in consanguinamory whether you know it or not, and whether or not your genealogical charts reveal it, chances are that you don’t have to go too far back in your family tree to find an ancestor whose true biological parents were close relatives.

There are people in relationships right now who would benefit if they had their right to marry. There is now no good reason to keep these laws and the taboo that deny an adult the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults. We’re not all going to want the same love lives as each other, but we should allow people to have the relationships of their mutual choosing, the ones in which they will function best.

An adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults without being subjected to prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

How You Can Help


Question: Why is incest illegal? Is incest illegal? Why is incest wrong? Is incest wrong? Why is consensual incest illegal? Is consensual incest illegal? Why is consensual incest wrong? Is consensual incest wrong? Why is incest illegal between consenting adults?

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Cautious Consanguinamory

So, someone you already love wants to love you more, and you want to love them more; you’re mutually attracted. And you’ve considered the pros and consand have decided to go for it. You want to add sexual affection to your relationship.

But you feel a need to go slowly.


You could be nervous and very cautious because it is new, because such experiences are an unknown to you, or because you’ve internalized cultural prejudices.
How do you move forward with care?



For Some, It Was An Event. Some people do not have this problem. They go from 0-60 in nothing, or over the course of a couple of weeks, and then they wonder why they didn’t start earlier. Some say it comes out of nowhere. The day or evening seems like any other, and then they wake up the next morning in bed, next to each other and having had the most intense sexual experience of their life. If you’ve done that and want to take a step back and take it slowly, that might not be possible, because you’ve already experienced it and there’s no reason to back up, but if you do want to back up, or you haven’t gone there yet, the rest of this entry might be helpful.


You Want It To Be A Process. If that Event above didn’t happen to you, you’re in this existing space between anticipation and inauguration. This is when you can discuss boundaries. Boundaries can and often do change, but if there is something you know would be uncomfortable for you in a way that you want to avoid, say so. Do you want to take the lead? Do you want the other person to take the lead? Just leave that open and “see what happens”? What do they want? Is this going to be a romance or a family-with-benefits arrangement, or something else? Also, as with any other relationship, you have to consider if pregnancy is a physical possibility and what to do about that. What about STIs? Is protection needed?



Breaking The Ice can be difficult. You might consider open-mouthed kissing to be that ice breaker, or maybe being nude together. Maybe it would be masturbating in front of each other, or some specific physical contact. Whatever it is, it is a level of affection and intimacy you haven’t previously shared with them. It indicates you have embarked on a new part of your relationship.



How and where you break the ice will depend on what both/all of you want and what you like. It could happen by staying in for a quiet evening at home, or going out on a date, or even by getting own of town on a vacation/holiday or trip. Whether leading up to that ice breaker or only after, you can share hugs/embraces, cuddling, hand-holding, kisses, and massages/rubs that get closer and closer to new territory. Kissing can move from the check to the neck and lips. How about sharing finger foods by feeding each other? Talking about sex and sexy things will make you more comfortable with each other. You can text/sext, but you shouldn’t do so without using a secure/encrypted messaging app that allows the messages to disappear, but even then it is risky if you want to ensure you're never outed.
Moving Forward in Steps allows both/each of you to reflect on your feelings. For example, if you try open-mouthed kissing and at least one of you decides things shouldn’t go further after all, then it stops there. That isn’t likely to happen, but agreeing to that option removes the pressure anyone might be feeling.
When the time comes, you’ll want to remove/eliminate distractions so that you can concentrate on each other without interruption. If nobody involved is a problem drinker, you might find a little wine to be helpful. A nice bath or time together in a hot tub is naturally relaxing. If you are still too nervous, role-playing as strangers or friends or as a fictional couple you both know about can help. If you’re still nervous about touching each other “there,” you can try using toys on each other before moving on to direct contact.
Once the ice has been broken and you both/all want to continue, especially if you you’re relationship is going to be family-with-benefits or something similar or you have other people living with you, especially people you’re not going to be out to, you may find it helpful to have a dedicated room or space for your encounters, and/or a symbol for when one of you is wanting that affection. The symbol could be a simple as placing a specific magnet on the refrigerator or turning on a specific lamp. It could be a seemingly mundane phrase. For example, you could both be sitting in the kitchen and one of you can say, "How about them Yankees?" and that is your signal to move to the spare bedroom.


This is an exciting time, and New Relationship Energy can be especially intense within consanguinamory. It can be easy to have the rest of the world fade away. But obligations and practical considerations can’t be ignored, nor can some of the usual considerations when it comes to relationships. While consanguinamorous relationships usually involve people who care about each other more than in the average relationship, there is a slight risk of at least one person taking another for granted. Avoid that trap in any relationship. Also keep undue guilt out of your relationship. There is no reason you shouldn't be free to love each other as you mutually agree. This entry here might help you figure out how to live together going forward.

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Sago/ Sabudana Idlis ( steamed dumplings made from Tapioca pearls)

Sago/sabudana or tapioca is very commonly used during fasting in India. There is Sabudana khichidi, Sabudana vadas, Sabudana thalipeeth. Sago pudding or kheer is a popular dessert made for special days. I am very fond of Sabudana on a regular basis, be it religious days or not. I could eat these items anytime.

Recently, my mom introduced me to Sabudana idlis. I have made many kinds of idlis: regular idli, varai idli, mallige idli, sannas, kulith idli, cucumber idli, cornmeal idlis. But Sabudana idlis I have not made. I decided to try mom's recipe as she was raving about these idlis. She also told me to make sure that I serve them with sagu, kurma, matar paneer  or any such curry or not the regular sambar. You know what they say!! Mom is always correct!!! Well it was definitely correct in this case! The idlis were soft, fluffy and delicious! I served it with saagu and it made for a truly delicious breakfast!

It is a great solution for next day breakfast if you have forgotten to make an idli or dosa batter. It is very simple and easy to make recipe with no grinding involved! You just mix the ingredients, make the batter the previous night and keep ready. In the morning just steam it and you have hot idli ready!!

Servings: 4-6

Prep time: 10 minutes + fermentation time ( 3-4hours)Cook time: 10 minsTotal time: 20 mins + fermentation time.

Ingredients :

Sabudana/sago/tapioca pearls: 1 cup
Rice rawa/ Cream of rice: 1 cup
Yogurt/Curd: 2 cups
Water: 1 cup ( may not need all)
Salt: 1/2 tsp ( adjust according to taste)
Baking soda: 1/4 tsp
Sugar: 1 tsp
Water: for steaming the idlis , as per individual steamer requirement.

Method:

Take Sabudana and washed rice rava in a bowl. Add 2 cups of yogurt and  mix . Add water little bit at a time to get a batter consistency that is not too thick or too runny.
Cover and keep aside for atleast 3-4 hours for fermentation. I leave mine overnight.
When ready to steam, add salt, sugar and baking powder to the batter. Mix well.

When you are ready to cook the idlis, grease the idli mold with ghee/ butter fill it with batter until 2/3 full. Boil water in the steamer. Once the water is boiling place the idli stand in the steamer. Steam in the idli steamer / pressure cooker ( without using the weight) for 10 minutes on medium- high flame.Turn off the heat and let it cool down in the steamer for another 10 minutes before taking them out of the mold.

Serve hot with chutney/ curry/ sambar of your choice!

Enjoy!!

Cooking made easy:

Idlis can be steamed in the traditional steamer, or in a regular pressure cooker ( without putting the whistle on). You can also steam it in an electric steamer or even in a rice cooker!

If you do not have the idli stand, use small ramekins or metal bowls to steam the idlis.

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A Guy Who Is Like Dear Brother

More research shows again that many women look for partners who are like their brothers.

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Mother's Day

Happy Mother's Day Weekend to all mothers out there, especially mothers who face discrimination, persecution, and even prosecution for loving one or more other adults, and the mothers who've stood by their children who've faced bigotry for being who they are and loving who they do.

We're making progress. Hang in there and continue to care for your loved ones.

If you have plans for an interesting Mother's Day or end up having an interesting Mother's Day and you think our readers will want to hear about it, do tell! Sons and daughters.... any special plans?

I include those who've "adopted" mother figures, especially if you've done so because your own mother is no longer with us or was not a supportive person. Almost all of us have a mother in our life, even if that mother isn't officially family.

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Pancakes with varied toppings

Mother's Day is this weekend!!

You don't have to make anything complicated or expensive for your mom on Mother's Day! You could make her a simple but delicious breakfast! Something as simple as pancakes!

The good thing about pancakes is their versatility! You could make them with fruits like berries or bananas, nuts like walnuts or pecans, flavors like vanilla or cinnamon or chocolate chips! 

If you don't like any of that in your pancake, you can top the pancake with a variety of toppings: sliced bananas, strawberries, berries, chocolate chip,chocolate syrup, maple syrup, honey.. Pretty much anything one wants. I would however stick to the healthier options.

Here is a simple recipe that you can use to make the pancakes.

Servings: makes 8-10 medium sized pancakes

Prep time: 10 minsCook time: 15 minsTotal time: 25 mins

Ingredients:

Milk: 1/2 cup
Egg: 1
Melted Butter/ oil: 2 tbsp
Flour: 1 cup
Baking powder: 1 tsp
Salt: 1/4 tsp
Sugar: 1 tbsp
Butter/oil: for greasing the griddle.

Method:

Whisk the egg and the milk.
Add the melted butter/ oil and mix well.
Now add the sugar, salt and stir.
Mix the baking powder with the flour.
Add this flour mix to the egg and milk mixture.
Stir the mixture so that there are no lumps. Do not over mix. If the batter is too thick, add a little more milk.
Keep it aside for 10-15 mins. The batter will thicken.

Heat the griddle.
Add 1/2 tsp of butter/oil to the pan.
Pour 1/4 cup of batter into the center of the pan. Using a ladle, gently spread it in circular motions. Don't spread it too thin.
Let it cook on low flame for 2 mins. You will see bubbling on top. Try to release the edges of the pancake from the pan. If it releases easily, flip the pancake.
Cook from the other side for 1 more minute.

Remove from the griddle and place it on a serving plate.
Top it with bananas,  berries, chocolate chip or nuts. Pour maple syrup/honey or regular syrup on top.

Serve hot.

Enjoy!

Cooking made easy:

If you wish you can mix chopped nuts of your choice in the batter.
You can add banana slices on top of the pancake, once you have poured the batter on the pan and it starts bubbling!

Tip for healthy living:

It is much healthier to use butter as opposed to butter substitutes or hydrogenated oils.

Food for thought:

I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen. Ernest Hemingway.

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Now is the Time - Solidarity is Best

This piece coincided with something I had meant to write. It is about solidarity.

This blog, and the related Facebook page, calls for relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality. When we say that an adult should be free to marry any and all consenting adults, we actually mean it. We have not hidden that.

I've had more than one polyamorous person think that this is great... when they realize it means I support the polygamous (or polyamorous) freedom to marry... then react negatively when they realize it means I support the consanguineous freedom to marry.

Yes, I do. I support the right of an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, to marry any and all consenting adults. So yes, I support the right of a white woman to marry a man of African ancestry, or 30-year-old man to marry a 60-year-old woman, or a man to marry a man, or a woman to marry two men, or a woman to marry the half-brother she first met when they were both adults. None of these marriages hurt anyone else. None of these marriages hurt anyone, at least not in and of themselves. There are people who aren't right for each other, there are abusers, but that has to do with the individuals involved, and not the general freedom to marry.

There are patriarchal polygynists who want support for their "plural marriages" but do not want to associate with anyone or anything standing up for the rights of LGBT people, or polyandrists, or any non-polygynist polyamorists.

There are monogamist gays and lesbians who dismiss someone else's need for polyamory or for the need of cousin couples to marry.

There are cousin couples who grew up together as much as any siblings who do not support the rights of half-siblings who did not grow up together to get married or even just be together without being criminally prosecuted.

There are many other examples like this. Everyone has their own interests, priorities, likes and dislikes, prejudices, and biases. Some people care only about their needs, not those of anyone else.

But we (including many LGBT people, and many people who are in or seeking plural marriage, a polygamous marriage, a polyamorous relationship, or a consanguineous relationship) are people who support the rights of all adults. We support full marriage equality, not just a freedom to marry for this group or that group. A decent person does not have to like the idea of every one of these relationships to support the rights of adults to have the relationships they want. A person doesn't have to want something for themselves or a loved one to have compassion for others who do need it.

Solidarity is:

1. The right thing to do

AND

2. It will prove to be the most effective way of securing rights.

Even some people who agree with #1 do not agree with #2.

Recently, a polyamorous person expressed to me her concern that my support for consanguinamorous relationships is a threat to the rights of poly people. Consanguinamory just isn't supposed to be how a relationship works, she said to me publicly. But haven't we heard these same things from some monogamist LGBT people about polyamorists? Shoot, we hear it about the "BT" in "LGBT". "Drop the bisexuals and transgendered in order to further the rights of lesbians and gays!" It is not only an awful thing to do, it is a false promise. There's the real slippery slope: allowing those who oppose equality to deny rights to anyone. 

But I was told that I was asking for too much in asking for full marriage equality, that by insisting that consanguineous lovers have their rights, too, that I was going to hurt the cause for poly people and there could be a swing of the proverbial pendulum, essentially back to the hetero-monogamous married only climate of condemning and denying rights to poly people, LGBT people, unmarried lovers, etc. Texas was cited as an example because of the recent vote on abortion restrictions. Texas is an outlier, though. Texas criminalizes consensual adult sex between first cousins, who can legally marry in about half of the states. Remember it was Texas law criminalizing "sodomy" that was stuck down in Lawrence vs. Texas. That was as recently as 2003. Meanwhile, just a year later, the limited same-gender freedom to marry began in Massachusetts after a long-building momentum.

Momentum is strong and increasing. We're not going to see a reduction in LGBT or poly rights; we're going to see a continuing advance. Including rights for the consanguinamorous will not jeopardize this; rather, standing up for relationship rights for all will strengthen the rights for LGBT and poly people. That is true because the people are evolving, for the most part, not because they no longer have their own aversions to relationships different than their own (many of them still do), but because they can think and they have thought through it and realized that consenting adults should be themselves and have their relationships and not be treated as second class citizens for doing so. When someone says we should support rights for consenting adults ...except for consanguinamorous relationships they are actually undermining LGBT and poly rights and the related freedoms to marry, because the people to whom they are making their appeal find the appeal insincere.

Almost all who do oppose or have opposed interracial, same-gender, polyamorous, and consanguineous sexuality/relationships/marriage have done so for two primary reasons:

1. personal disgust
2. their religion

Sometimes those two reasons are indistinguishable.

But when people are calmly but firmly asked to think it through, and their concerns are addressed, they realize that there is no good reason to oppose consensual relationships between consenting adults. When someone insists that it is still OK or right to oppose consanguineous relationships, they are almost invariably bringing back an argument that they just dismissed when it comes to other freedoms to marry, as Greenfield points out. To say that it is permissible to deny consanguineous lovers their rights, someone actually undermines the case for their own rights. Specifically, a polyamorous person runs a risk because the consanguineous freedom to marry takes less paperwork and adjustment than adjusting for polyamory. Also, more people have experienced consanguineous experimentation (at the very least) than have experienced polyfidelity or open coupling. 10-15% of people in their early 20s will confide in surveys to having had consensual sexual contact with a siblings. The percentages increase in older age groups (due to more opportunities as time goes by.) That doesn't include contact with cousins, aunts, uncles, or parents. Some of those people enter into lasting relationships.

Now is the time to push for the rights of ALL adults. The bigots are in retreat. There's no going back. There may be some isolated backlash, but this kind of prejudice is dying out... literally. When we respond to the stubborn bigots by saying yes, discrimination against some adults is OK, the remaining observers, who are the ones who can be persuaded to support rights for polyamorists and LGBT people, are going to lose respect for the argument for equality. So the best response to "What's next?" is "Rights for all consenting adults. Why is that a problem?" The bigots won't have a good reason. Put them on the defensive, and they'll lose.

Consenting adults of any relation can be together in Rhode Island. There's no reason they shouldn't be free to marry, and no reason why first cousins, who can legally marry in California, should not be free to be together in Texas. There's no reason for Utah to criminalize polyamory. There's no good reason for any state to deny consenting adults their fundamental rights to be together and to marry.

Those who oppose equality and have cited my blog have never explained what is wrong with what I have argued. Conversely, people have told me that I have opened and changed their minds about same-gender relationships, about polyamorous relationships, and about consanguineous relationships. I have received relieved and thankful messages from people who are so happy to find that someone speaks for them. I will not throw these people under the bus.

These disputes are nothing new to the civil rights movement. Going all the way back to when African-Americans were still enslaved, there were disputes about what rights to seek and how to seek them. "Do we fight for desegregation? For interracial marriage?" Those fighting for women's rights have had similar disputes. "Do we fight for lesbians or not?"To this day, there are people who say civil rights are for African-Americans. Not for gays, not even for Mexicans. Don't play that game. Stand up for the rights of all adults. You don't have to like the idea of interracial relationships, or same-gender relationships, or polyamorous relationships, or consanguineous relationships to realize that people should have their rights.

Standing up for full marriage equality is not only the principled thing to do, it is the practical thing as well. There are people who are suffering right now because their loving, lasing, happy, healthy relationship is denied equality or even criminalized. This is not right, and it needs to end.

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Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

UPDATE: Jane has a great essay on these topics here.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…

I have been sexually active with my brother for 3 years now. We have sex whenever we get the chance which unfortunately is only about once a month as we live a bit of a distance apart but whenever i am home visiting family once a month we always make a point to hook up at least once and we have always been careful to use condoms but i am seriously considering letting him go "bareback" . Sex without condoms is so much better. I know the risk but i am really considering it.

Girls out there in incestland? What do you thinik? Condoms? or no condoms?

Janel responded…

Carebear...as long as you are both disease and drug free...then ditch the condoms. But, if you are fertile, then just remember that you could get pregnant...not sure if you want that or not. If you know when you ovulate, then you just don't have sex during those 36 hours......

carebear82 added…

forsure. we both know the risks but i really want him to cum inside me. i think im going to do it. i tell you the first time i took off my clothes in front of him and he slowly gently slid his cock inside me it was heaven. what an amazing feeling.

horny guy questioned…

Is 36 hours going to be a safe enough timescale to ensure 'safe' sex with your brother? I've heard of many instances where a female has concieved in the middle of her cycle, which for you could be a disaster (unless you want to have a baby with your brother)?

Maybe you could try another form of contraception-spermicidal foam, for instance?

Hope all goes well, but be careful!

Hank5 was nostalgic…

My sister and I were lovers for 3 years whilst sharing an apartment attending the same out of town university. We made love almost daily, but neither of us like condoms and from the start we did it "bareback". The first time we did it, she went to the university health clinic the following morning to get the "morning after" pill. Thereafter she went on the contraceptive pill.

For both of us making love skin-on-skin, and me pouring my semen into her uterus, was the apex of sexual enjoyment.

Just make sure that you practice safe sex so as to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.

Carebear82 updated the situation with what you could probably guess would happen…

I just wanted to let everyone know that my stupid plan to ditch the condoms has now ended in disaster as i am now pregnant with my brothers baby.on my doctors advice i did not go on the pill because of a few of the risks of the pill involved so we were practicing the "pull out" and he usually cums on my tummy or back depending what position we are in. well one stupid time he didnt pull out in time and now its gonna be pretty hard to explain to the family.

Even if he had pulled out each time, that isn’t contraception. Sperm can leave the penis well before any orgasm.


That particular discussion board, like many others was suffering from much spam and gibberish posting. I recommend instead visiting Kindred Spirits forum, registering/joining for free. But be sure to immediately read all of the rules.

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When Someone You Love Wants To Love You More

You may have come to this blog because you think or know someone in your family or closely related to you is attracted to you, or has a crush on you, or wants to getromantic or sexual with you. You may have had a mix of reactions to this, whether you've been shocked, surprised, confused, amused, bemused, worried, flattered, aroused, creeped out, repulsed, nervous, or some combination of these. So what do you do when a relative has a crush or very strong attraction to you?


These Feelings Are Normal and More Common Than You Think

These feelings are not so rare. There’s not necessarily any reason to get them to a mental health professional because they have these feelings. They are especially common when you were not raised by one another or with each other, but even if you were raised together or by one another, it's not unheard of.


These Feelings Aren't Wrong

Their feelings are their own. It is OK for them to have their feelings, and they certainly aren't alone in having such feelings.



And your feelings are yourown.


Their feelings do not require you to act one way or another, but doing nothing at all is probably the worst way to react.

If you're feeling the same asthey are, or want to seriously consider adding this bond to your relationship, you might be better off going to this entry here.

But if you're somewhat unsure, ambivalent, wavering, or all the way over to the side of being fairly certain you want no part of such a situation, the rest of his entry is for you.


Initial Reaction

Unless you've been hoping for this moment, you should probably take some time to think it over, even if your initial internal reaction was "No!" If you've already reacted negatively to them, there's still a chance to smooth things over.


Are You Sure It is How They Feel?


As we like to say around here, thinking and knowing are two different things.

It’s pretty clear how they feel if they explicitly say that they want to get it on, or they made an unmistakable physical pass at you, or you’ve overheard them masturbating and saying your name, or you’ve discovered that they keep images of you that are sexy or explicit or are very suggestive, or the history/files on their smart phone, tablet, or computer reveals they’ve been thinking about how to get with you.

If you've got a vagina and you find that your underwear (especially used) keeps getting moved or disappears and reappears in their room, that’s a pretty strong signal on their part; there is only doubt if they are the same size as you, in which case there is a small chance they wanted to wear it (washed). If you find that your underwear/lingerie or toys keep getting moved or used, that’s a strong indicator. It is also something I advise against people against doing, just FYI.

If they've left this very essay for you to find, then it should be clear.

If you have such clarity, You can skip down to the next section.

But if it hasn’t been that clear, there's a chance they're not making a play or inviting you to. They may not even want to act even if they do have feelings for you in that way.

If you only thinkthey might be interested, it could be a misunderstanding or maybe you are misreading them (or even projecting your own latent feelings).

Flirting or behaviors that would look like flirting to the average observer ignorant of your relation might be an indication, but those things aren't definitive if not explicit or blunt.

Maybe you've found out that they like (or even create) porn or erotica with incestuous themes. This does not necessarily mean they are attracted to you and want to have sex with you and are hoping to have sex with you. It's a very popular genre. Some people enjoy such material or even have a fetish for it without actually wanting to be with their own family members. Porn is usually very different from reality, after all. On the other hand, it can be a sign of interest.

Hints, clues, or signs likely to indicate they're interested:

• They look for reasons to be around you, especially alone, without an apparent agenda. 
• They suggest or arrange for you two to do things that romantic couples might do, even if it they try to make it seem like an accident (such as getting the two of you in a hotel room with just one bed). 
• They have increased physical contact with you. 
• You catch them staring at you or giving you lingering looks. 
• They’ve started or increased discussions about sex with you, especially consanguineous sex and relationships, and especially if it involves “joking” about consanguinamory or something happening between the two of you. 
• They express jealousy or envy towards your (potential) dates or lovers. 
• The people they date or find most attractive have similarities to you in appearance, age, mannerisms, etc. They may even (try to) date your friends. 
• They’ve “accidentally,” or have had excuses to, come in to where you are changing clothes or showering/bathing or have tried to call you in when they are changing clothes or showering/bathing when it hasn’t been typical for you to be in those circumstances together. 
• They are dressing up more impressively than usual or in more revealing clothing around you for no apparent reason.
• They’ve started to invite you to tell them how they look or if something they’re wearing is appropriate. 
• They mention having a sexual dream that included you. Even if they play it off as funny or strange, they could be trying to see how you react.
  

None of these by themselves mean it is certain they are sexually attracted to you, but the more that you recognize them doing, the more likely they are.

If you're stillunsure and you don't want to come right out and ask them because it could be embarrassing, you can give them a chance to speak plainly about their feelings for you by talking about the subject in general. If you talk about it in a way that indicates to them that it is safe for them to talk with you about it and they can tell you anything, then they’ll reveal if they do feel that way for you. Some ways of doing this would be to say that you had a dream that included them, or that you’d consider it flattering if someone in the family thought you were attractive. You can say things like, "Is there anything on your mind you're not telling me? You can tell me anything, and I mean anything." Or something like, "You know, I've been thinking about how rare it can be for people to find a very strong, special connection to each other, and it is shame that some people think there is anything wrong with consenting adults loving each other in any way they want." There are many things you could say that will give them the confidence to be vulnerable with you.


You're Positive They Want to Jump Your Bones

No matter what your feelings are, you need to make it clear what boundaries, if any, you need to be in place.

Again, if you think you want to go for it, whether you’ve been hoping they feel that way or you’re curious or want to explore or experiment, go ahead and see this.

If you need limits on what is going to happen, when, where, etc., then you need to discuss that with them, as you should for any romantic or sexual relationship you’d have with anyone. Maybe your limits include cuddling, maybe kissing, maybe simply being naked around each other, maybe masturbating in front of each other, or touching each other or various forms of sexual contact. Maybe you want to move more slowly than you have with others (although many people in these situations end up moving faster than they have with others, and often regret that they didn’t get together sooner.)

If you think there is no way you'd want to get any more physically affectionate or romantic than you already do with them, do you know why? Consider if you’re internalizing a senseless prejudice against something that could be very enjoyable for both or all of you and bring you closer together. It might be a good idea to tell the other person you need some time to think about things. Sometimes, people who are initially shocked or have a negative reaction, after thinking it over, realize they have a mutual interest. The thought that they want you might have caught you off-guard or shocked you. Take some time of think about it. This is someone who loves you and knows you. It had to take some courage on their part to be vulnerable with you if they volunteered to you how they feel.

While there is no good reason to have laws or taboos against such relationships, you may have a reason to not have such a relationship, at least with this person. After all, each person needs to decide for themselves that they’re going to do and with whom when it comes to physical contact and romantic activities.

If you're not going to further or continue sexual or romantic affection, it would be best to let them down easy, and you probably want to let them down easy, unless they’ve been coercive in their approach. Who likes to be rejected?

Some things you might want to say, depending on the situation:

• You’re flattered 
• You love them
• You’re not upset with them 
• You just can’t go there because your feelings for them, while loving and pleasant, are entirely non-romantic and/or non-sexual 
• You’re not open to a romantic or sexual relationship anyone right now (or anymore) 
• You’re committed to someone else/others and do not want to jeopardize that 
• You just can’t take the possible risks
  

Even if you already reacted in a way that wasn’t exactly letting them down easy, you can go back to them and tell them that you’re flattered, you’re sorry you reacted that way, but you were caught off guard, then tell them one or more of the statements above.

If you take the route of not “going there,” be sure to be mindful of what you’re doing around them because you do not want to tease them or give them false hope. It is tough enough for them to deal with the rejection; don’t add to the difficulty.

Also, they may be consanguinamorous as their orientation, and even if they aren't they might pursue a consanguinamorous relationship with someone else. Here's how to be an ally.

If you'd like to contact me to discuss these matters further, you can write me at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com

(Disclaimer: This entry assumes you live, or would move to, someplace where affection would not be a criminal matter.)


How To Pull Off Living With Your Consanguineous Lover

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