The Love Overcomes the Hate

On this blog's sister Tumblr, someone asked if we get a lot of hateful messages. Go read the answer.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #13

“This will cause inheritance disputes.” This can’t be a reason for the continued denial of the polyamorous or polygamous freedom to marry. Again, if we're talking about children, not all polyamorous marriages will have children. But even with today’s restriction of monogamy-only for marriage, we see inheritance disputes all of the time. Widows and widowers who were married only once get in fights with their own children, who may fight with each other. Then, in some cases, there are children born outside of that marriage. There’s divorce and remarriage with or without stepchildren or making more children, there are people who were never married who have kids, there are childless people whose inheritances are disputed, "monogamous" and polyamorous people who had children with multiple people without having been married to any those partners, on and on it goes. If anything, legalizing polygamy would make it easier to sort out inheritance. There can be default rules in the law, and people can come up with their own documented, legal agreements.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #12 

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #14

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The 'highs' and 'lows' of making a call to parents hosting a party: Three parents' experiences (one wonderful, two not-so-good!)

Last week's blog entry looked at questions parents need answered to assist them in making a decision about whether their child should attend a sleepover, party or gathering or not. In most cases, to get those answers you need to access a number of sources, including calling the host parents. It's never going to be easy to make that call and I can guarantee your child (no matter what their age) is going to want you to do it. They'll moan and groan and say you will 'shame them forever', but as one Mum wrote on my Facebook page in response to the piece ...

"If we all do the call it stops being embarrassing! They may try to whinge that we're the only parents who are uncool enough to call but it's great to be able to reply that Jon's, Matt's Lucy's, Mary's, Laura's and Dave's parents called too."

That's so true! If more parents made the call and it just became part of what was done every weekend, it would make it easier for everyone. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. That said, I certainly think we are seeing more parents actively parenting in this area today than we saw in the past, it's just that we could do a heck of a lot better! The problem is that as another mother wrote, even if you do make the call, there are no guarantees that you are going to get the whole truth …

"Parents lie though .. I've had face to face discussion with a parent re no alcohol being at a party my daughter attended. She came home to tell me that they in fact allowed alcohol. Don't trust on face value all the time is my suggestion …"

I've written many times before about parents lying to other parents about the parties they are hosting. I've also discussed why this may be happening and the very real problems this has caused parents I have met over the years. The one thing I've never done, however, is discuss some of the experiences Mums and Dads have sent through to me when they have actually put in the effort and made the call. As already said, calling another parent and asking them about an event they are hosting is never going to be easy but as you will see from the following stories, sometimes the call goes extremely well, while at others it's a complete disaster!

Most importantly, for many parents the experience is likely to be fairly 'benign' - you'll introduce yourself, ask your questions, get some responses, thank them and get off the phone. Sometimes though, something special may happen …

Caroline's 14-year-old son, James, was invited to a sleepover. He had attended a number of such events over the previous 12 months and almost all of them were hosted by parents that she had either known or at least met either at the school or school/sporting events. She still made a call or made a point of talking to a host parent even if she knew them. This sleepover, however, was being held by a family that were new to the school. James bought an invitation home and Caroline, as always, made the call, although as she said "For some reason I didn't do it as quickly as I usually would and ended up speaking to the mother only a couple of days before the event." The phone call was uneventful and Caroline and on the night of the sleepover she took James to the door, as she usually did, met the Mum briefly, had a quick chat welcoming her to the school and left. Early the next week she received a card in the mail from the mother thanking her for the call (apparently she was the only one who did) and also for introducing herself that night (once again, she was the only one). She also asked her if she would like to catch up at some point for a coffee. They did and Caroline and Sarah (the mother) are now the closest of friends …  

Then you have the other stories. Sadly, these are just some of the many I have received over the years ...

Serena, the mother of a 15-year-old son, Gary, had always either met up with parents hosting sleepovers, gatherings and parties or made a phone call to find out what will or won't be happening. There had never been an issue with doing this all the way through primary school and even in the early years of high school, but things started to change in Year 9. Gary had never liked her making calls but knew it was a family rule, i.e., if she didn't make the call, he couldn't go. When he asked to attend a party at the beginning of Year 10 Serena had a feeling that it was a different type of event and when she finally got access to the host parent's phone number and made the call, she was right … Serena had three questions that she asked when she made a call and before she could even ask the first she was accused of 'overparenting' and shaming her son. "I was told by this woman that he was 15 and did he know that I was making the call?" Serena told me. "According to her, I was embarrassing him by calling and he would be the laughing stock of his group if they found out. She went into a long rambling speech about how she trusted her son and would never dream of doing what I was doing! I was stunned by what she was saying and how fast the call had got completely out of control. All I had done is to introduce myself and tell her that I was calling to find out about the party my son had been invited to …" Not surprisingly, Serena thanked the mother for her time, got off the phone and informed her son he would not be attending the party!

When Cecilia's 16-year-old daughter Jayne was invited to a 16th birthday, she had no idea that the call she would make to the host parents would end up leading to her child having to leave her school after almost 6 months of intense bullying and harassment. Cecilia had always made a call to parents hosting events and had never had a bad experience but from the moment this mother picked up the phone, she knew something was wrong. The actual call was not particularly problematic - Cecilia asked her usual questions and got answers but as she told me "I should have known something was wrong when she asked me to repeat Jayne's name." What she found out later was that the mother had then gone straight to her teen (the birthday girl) and told her about the call, apparently mocking both Cecilia and her daughter and the fact that she had made a call, actually repeating the questions she had asked. What followed was a period of systematic bullying by the birthday girl and her friends, both face-to-face and via social media. Jayne was totally ostracised and even though the Principal, teachers and counsellors became involved and tried to help, Cecilia had to finally remove her daughter from the school. "When I finally had a face-to-face meeting with this mother that had been organised by the Principal it became quite clear that she was just as much of a bully as her daughter was. I still find it extremely difficult to understand why she did what she did and I will never forgive her for what she has done to Jayne. It's almost impossible to believe that simply asking what time a party was ending would result in such a response."

It's difficult to believe that any parent would respond in such a negative way to a simple request for information regarding an event they are hosting. Realistically, both of the host parents in the final two stories above obviously have serious issues … You certainly don't have to agree with the parenting choices of others and no-one can tell another parent what to do with their child, however, when you are concerned about the health and safety of your teen, you have every right to ask whatever question you want. Of course, whatever your questions are, they need to be asked respectfully and without judgement (i.e., if you don't agree with what the parent is going to do, just thank them for their time, hang up and inform your child that they're not going. You don't need to have a debate with the host parent about their choices when it comes to running a party).

What these three cases highlight is that making these calls can result in better 'parent networks' (and, in Caroline's case, a strong and valuable friendship) that will potentially assist all concerned, particularly as your child gets older and alcohol starts to become a part of the events they will be attending. If you get a difficult parent on the other end of the phone, however, it can be an extremely confronting experience and lead to you never putting the effort in again ...

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Why More Will Try Polyamory

Thanks to psychologytoday.com for continuing to feature good content respecting polyamorous families and individuals. Elisabeth Sheff, Ph.D had another good writeup there, titled "Fear of the Polyamorous Possibility." It is about why some people feel threatened by polyamory. [This entry is being bumped up.]

There are three common reactions, she says, to the realization that polyamory is a possibility. You'll have to click through if you want to read about those, but I wanted to note that she explains why there is the potential of a much larger percentage of the population having polyamorous relationships.

Among forms of sexual nonconformity, polyamory is unusual in that it could potentially be appealing to everyone who desires intimate relationships with other people. Most people are heterosexual, and it is readily apparent that not every one experiences same-sex sexual attraction or desire. In other words, not everyone has the capacity or desire to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Unless they are monogamous by orientation, however, most people in long-term relationships -- regardless of sexual orientation -- have had the experience of being attracted to someone else besides their partner. Almost everyone has the potential to be polyamorous in a way that many people do not have that same potential to be gay.

Just about anyone who has been in a long-term relationship, no matter how happy they have been in that relationship, has experienced a desire for, or daydream of, doing something with someone that might not be considered appropriate, and not because they want to betray or hurt the other person in the relationship, but because they find this "third" person fascinating, attractive, or they share something in common. It doesn't have to be sexual. It could be an emotional connection, or simply wanting to share some recreational experience. It could be going to a concert, or hiking and camping in a specific spot, a mutual interest in a style of dance or cuisine. Or, it could be entirely sexual, or romantic, or emotional. There are so very many ways that polyamory can be experienced, and many people who don't need polyamory can still want and enjoy at least a season in which they have more than one relationship, without lying or sneaking around.

Despite the claims of some bigots, adopting the same-gender freedom to marry and eliminating other forms of prejudice against LGBT people does not make one more person gay or lesbian. Removing discrimination against ethical nonmonogamy, and especially adopting the polygamous freedom to marry, will mean more people will enjoy polyamory, because you don't have to need polyamory to enjoy polyamory.

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Cousins Changing States

This was left as a comment and it is a very important question for those of us in the US.

Can anyone offer insight on the case of 1st cousins who marry where it is legal and later move to a state where it is not. It would seem that the full faith and credit clause of the constitution would offer them protection. 

Article. IV. - Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

From what we've seen from family law attorneys online, you appear to be correct, at least with certain states. I do want to remind you that I am not a lawyer or attorney, and I recommend checking with a family law attorney in the state to which you plan to move or have moved.

There is a chart on Wikipedia that indicates that some states will not recognize any first cousin marriages from other states, while some others will not recognize them if they are that state's residents who went to another state to get married. It seems to me this has to be unconstitutional based on many precedents.

It is important to note that a handful of US states criminalize sex between (unmarried) first cousins, and yes, people have been recently prosecuted. But it appears as though if you were legally married in one state (which can include "common law marriage" after living together a certain number of years) and move to one of those criminalizing states, you'd be OK.

There is an organization called Cousin Couples that could have answers.

Anyone with personal experience in these matters or who has practiced family law is encouraged to leave a comment.

Cousins, and any other consenting adults, should be free to be together, married or not, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. This is why the US and every country needs full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #12

“What about child custody and child support?” This is an especially flimsy objection to polyamorous (or polygamous) relationships. As we have noted before, adult relationships don't always involve raising children. Even so, nonmonogamous relationships between adults who are parents have always existed, and in most places, it isn't criminal to be nonmonogamous. So this issue is already being handled. Notice we could ask the same question about children from one night stands, donated sperm, surrogate mothers, affairs, brief flings, or supposedly monogamous relationships and marriages that end. What about children born to a woman whose husband wasn’t the man who impregnated her? All of these situations are entirely legal. A mediator, arbitrator, or court decides custody and child support disputes that aren’t resolved amicably. That would still be the case if polyamorous relationships had legal protections, including marriage.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #11 

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #13

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A New GSA Blog and Jane's Latest

Here's a new blog written by a woman in a Genetic Sexual Attraction relationship with her father.

Also, Jane has updated her blog with an entry about being on the consanguinamory spectrum in orientation but being in a "regular" relationship.

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Sleeping more than eight hours increases risk of death from heart disease and/or stroke.

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Polygamy and Public Assistance

I'm including a submission from a polygynist friend of FME. The following reflects his thoughts. I will make a brief comment at the end.

*****

Q: I would like more explanation of what the polygamist mindset is like, because to mono people it is so hard to understand. For example. As a mono person all I can imagine is that there is one guy who is fathering 20 or more children and the state ends up providing everything for the family because they can't manage on their own. I don't think that it is right for the state or taxpayers to have to take care of all the children that are born into these families. These so called families are just lazy and want a free ride from the rest of us.

A: That is a very good question. And I am so glad that you brought that up. The fact of the matter is that it is really easy to think that one man is going to have so many children and not be able to take care of them. In today's society we hear a lot about unwed mothers who have a lot of children in order to collect state benefits. But the truth is that polygamists believe in families. Polygamists are family oriented and not oriented toward the single lifestyle. Due to that fact and the fact that polygamy is illegal, most polygamists have learned to be self sufficient and rely on themselves for their needs. Just look at the TV show "Sister Wives." The husband and some of the wives have real jobs that they go to. But they also started their very own business. It is called My Sister Wife's Closet. I know of polygamist families that have started their own restaurants. One of which is centered around polygamy so that people can take a trip and experience what its like in that community. 

As for myself, I have done so many things to ensure that my children and way of life is preserved. I bought my own home and land. I own it completely. I don't pay a mortgage or anything else. I even buy my cars outright. So by buying my own property, homes, vehicles and everything else, I am not in debt. Everything that I bring in is free and clear. Most people today are living paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford the rent or mortgage that they have. I don't have that problem. Also, what is great about owning land is that I can always grow the food that I need for my family. We produce so much food that we give food away to others in need.

I always knew that I wanted to have a big family. Because of that, I took the time to think about my life and what I needed to do to provide for them. I can't speak for all polygamists, but for the ones that I do know, they all understand that in order to have big families that they will need to work hard and do whatever they need to do to ensure that their families succeed in life.

The fact is that there are many people out there in the world that do try and take advantage of the system and get what they can from it. But most polygamists aren't that way and will do whatever they need to in order to survive so they don't bring more attention to them then they already have. But in the end, if there are people who need a helping hand in life because they have fallen on hard times, then what's the problem with us being good neighbors and helping them to the best of our abilities?

Let me ask you something. Have you ever thought about what a man has to do in order for a woman to want to marry him? The man has to show the woman that he can provide for her and the family. And have you ever thought about what a woman has to do in order to choose a man to marry? She has to think long and hard about whether or not the man can provide for her. What woman would want to marry a man that was a bum? Not many, I can tell you that. Now imagine what it's like for one man to show four women that he can provide for them. 

But in the end, the men and the women understand that they all need to provide for their families, not just the man. What I mean is that the women understand that they need to take an active part in doing what is needed for their family to survive, also. I know some wives work, not because the man doesn't make enough money but because they want to take some of the burden away from the man so that they can all have more quality time together. No wife and children would be happy if the husband and father was never home because he was gone all the time working. I know of polygamist families where the man had lost his job and the wives had to go to work because the man couldn't find work. The whole family pitches in. That's what love is all about. 

The polygamist family works as a team to ensure that the needs of the family are met. No matter what the needs are or what they have to do.

*****


People are increasingly realizing the advantages of determining their own roles and making mutual agreements with their partner(s) rather than trying to conform to "traditional" gender roles and hetero-monogamist constructs to which they're not suited. There will always be some families that are polygynist and in which the husband will be the highest earner. But there are many other families where this is not the case, and families in which the adults are all men or all women, or with multiple men and one woman, or multiple men and multiple women. They can determine for themselves who will earn income and who will be with the children when. Some of them will have home-based businesses.

What is the current system in the US when it comes to welfare benefits? A polygynist man can only have one lawful wife. So, he's legally married to none or just one of his wives. In the US, if a mother isn't legally married, she is more likely to qualify for public assistance. Allowing all adults to marry any and all consenting adults would make it more likely these women would be legally married, making it less likely they will qualify for public assistance. It seems to me that the argument asking "Aren't polygamists a drain on public assistance?" is actually an argument for legalization of polyamorist or polygamist or plural marriage.

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