Wednesday, October 11, 2017

Coming Out Day

Even with the US Supreme Court decision bringing all states online with the limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry, and some recent laws enacted for the protection and rights of LGBT people in the US and other countries, life can be tough for someone whose identity and orientation doesn’t fit in to a little heterosexual, monogamous, "traditional"-gender-role box or whose relationship doesn’t meet the local sex police’s approved standards. Sometimes, a person or the people in a relationship want to come out of the closet. Sometimes they need to come out. For some of these people, it is a little less difficult if they do so as part of a communal event, such as National Coming Out Day.

National Coming Out Day is today, October 11. Here’s the official website, at least for the US. There is much helpful information there, regardless of where you live.

The more people that come out, the more the others around them will realize they do know and appreciate people who are LGBT, or polyamorous, or consanguinamorous, and that such people and relationships deserve equality. So coming out helps progress.

On the other hand, it is understandable that any given person, couple, triad, or quad decides to stay in the closet for now. There’s still so much hate, so much prejudice and persecution, and even unjust laws that hinder the life and love of people who are good citizens and just want to be themselves. I support the decision of anyone who believes they need to be reserved for now for the sake of their safety and family.

The decision to come out is yours. Do you want to come out, and to whom? Your friends? Your family? Your coworkers? Your classmates? Your neighbors? Your crush? The whole world?

Also, if someone comes out to you, the decision to be an ally is yours. If your classmate, coworker, neighbor, friend, parent, child, or sibling comes to you and says they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, polysexual, pansexual, transgender, polyamorous, or in a consanguinamorous relationship, what will you do? Will you choose love and acceptance?

Even if you are heterosexual, monogamous, and nonconsanguinamorous, you may want to come out as an ally for full marriage equality. That alone can take courage, but it helps.

If you are planning to come out, or you do come out, please feel free to share your experience here by commenting.

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Advice on Coming Out as Polyamorous to Your Parents

Since claimed (serial) monogamy is usually presented as the default relationship model, polyamorists sometimes have a need to come out to others, including their parents. has some advice at everydayfeminism.com about coming out to your parents.
Maybe you’re already seeing more than one partner, or you’re hoping or planning to. Maybe you’re in a monogamous relationship that you want to open up. Maybe you’ve already told a few close friends, or your entire Facebook friends list.
If you're doing these things, your parents are probably figuring it out already, at least on some level.
1. Show Them Some 101 Resources

You don’t have to do all the work of explaining polyamory to your parents yourself. Luckily, many have already invented that particular wheel.

olyamorous educator Franklin Veaux provides a useful introduction to polyamory at his website, More Than Two. This PDF by Cherie L. Ve Ard and Franklin Veaux includes both a glossary and some common polyamory myths. The books Opening Up, More Than Two, and The Ethical Slut include lots of introductory material for those who don’t know much about polyamory and could be great gifts if you think your parents might want a more in-depth explanation.

Many cities also have local groups that have events and meetings, some of which are geared towards people who are curious or apprehensive about polyamory and hoping to learn more. If you think this might help your parents, you can try searching Meetup for a group in their area.
Go read through the rest of it if you have any interest. It is helpful. Be prepared for the standard arguments people try to make against polyamory.


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Tuesday, October 10, 2017

Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

UPDATE: Jane has a great essay on these topics here.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…



I have been sexually active with my brother for 3 years now. We have sex whenever we get the chance which unfortunately is only about once a month as we live a bit of a distance apart but whenever i am home visiting family once a month we always make a point to hook up at least once and we have always been careful to use condoms but i am seriously considering letting him go "bareback" . Sex without condoms is so much better. I know the risk but i am really considering it.

Girls out there in incestland? What do you thinik? Condoms? or no condoms?

Janel responded…

Carebear...as long as you are both disease and drug free...then ditch the condoms. But, if you are fertile, then just remember that you could get pregnant...not sure if you want that or not. If you know when you ovulate, then you just don't have sex during those 36 hours......

carebear82 added…

forsure. we both know the risks but i really want him to cum inside me. i think im going to do it. i tell you the first time i took off my clothes in front of him and he slowly gently slid his cock inside me it was heaven. what an amazing feeling.

horny guy questioned…

Is 36 hours going to be a safe enough timescale to ensure 'safe' sex with your brother? I've heard of many instances where a female has concieved in the middle of her cycle, which for you could be a disaster (unless you want to have a baby with your brother)?

Maybe you could try another form of contraception-spermicidal foam, for instance?

Hope all goes well, but be careful!

Hank5 was nostalgic…

My sister and I were lovers for 3 years whilst sharing an apartment attending the same out of town university. We made love almost daily, but neither of us like condoms and from the start we did it "bareback". The first time we did it, she went to the university health clinic the following morning to get the "morning after" pill. Thereafter she went on the contraceptive pill.

For both of us making love skin-on-skin, and me pouring my semen into her uterus, was the apex of sexual enjoyment.

Just make sure that you practice safe sex so as to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.

Carebear82 updated the situation with what you could probably guess would happen…

I just wanted to let everyone know that my stupid plan to ditch the condoms has now ended in disaster as i am now pregnant with my brothers baby.on my doctors advice i did not go on the pill because of a few of the risks of the pill involved so we were practicing the "pull out" and he usually cums on my tummy or back depending what position we are in. well one stupid time he didnt pull out in time and now its gonna be pretty hard to explain to the family.

Even if he had pulled out each time, that isn’t contraception. Sperm can leave the penis well before any orgasm.


That particular discussion board, like many others was suffering from much spam and gibberish posting. I recommend instead visiting Kindred Spirits forum, registering/joining for free. But be sure to immediately read all of the rules.


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Sunday, October 8, 2017

The Family Business

Consanguinamory has always been depicted on our stories because it has always been a part of life. But what about when the story itself doesn't have consanguinamory, but the performers are close relatives playing love interests? at screenrant.com noted "15 Times Siblings Played Love Interests In Movies and TV"...
Yes, you read that correctly: real brothers and sisters have portrayed characters who want to do the nasty with each other, and several have even included full-blown make outs or steamy bedroom scenes.
The nasty? Sibling consanguinamory is often a beautiful thing.
9. Sophie and Eloise Lovell Anderson (The Bastard Executioner)Disturbing as it may be, there’s a long-accepted male fantasy that involves bedding twin sisters – either separately, or at the same time. For most, it’s something that stays firmly in the fantasy realm, or is pulled out for a sitcom punch-line. However, real-life twin sisters Sophie and Eloise Lovell Anderson brought that fantasy to life in The Bastard Executioner, where the two play twin prostitutes.

The scheming Clara and Ramona decided to use their sexy similarities to seduce a target into having a threesome with them. The scene wasn’t just implied, either, but a graphic sex sequence that includes both girls naked in bed with their conquest, and making out not just with the man, but with each other as well.
Rose Moore really, really wants to make it clear she finds this all disgusting.

7. Pepi and Ruth Hermine (Putney Swope)
This satirical black comedy about the advertising business, racism, and corporate corruption was an arthouse hit when it was released in 1969 – but it includes one particularly incestuous scene where siblings aren’t just portraying a married couple, but share a loving kiss in bed.
Putney Swope’s President of the United States was portrayed by Pepi Hermine, while his (nameless) First Lady was played by his own sister, Ruth Hermine. One of their scenes involved the two getting into bed and kissing each other with real gusto, and leaving the rest to the audience’s imagination. Director Robert Downey Sr. revealed that he didn’t realize that the two were brother and sister when he cast them, but said that when he found out “it made it twice as funny”.
Yes... funny.

3. Meret and Ben Becker (The Harmonist)
Meret and Ben Becker may not be as well known as some of the other Hollywood families on this list, but these siblings share one of the steamiest love scenes of any real-life relatives on the big screen.

The two starred opposite each other in The Harmonists, a semi-fictional film about the rise and fall of a popular vocal group in Germany in the 1930s. Ben Becker stars as Robert Biberti, one third of a love triangle completed by another Harmonist, Harry, and Meret Becker’s Erna Eggstein. Both men fall in love with Erna, and although she begins the movie in love with Harry (and the two even consummate their romance), he cannot commit to her. Robert, his confident friend, ends up wooing her instead, and the two have a secret affair, including a passionate on-screen kiss… between a real-life brother and sister.
And finally...
1. Chyler Leigh and Christopher Khayman Lee (Kickboxing Academy)

Sorry folks, but we have indeed shared the worst for last. Forgive us.

Chyler Leigh may have made a name for herself in great shows like Grey’s Anatomy and Supergirl, but she’s also been in a couple pretty awful things as well – and topping the list of bad movies has to be Kickboxing Academy. This ‘90s teen rip-off of The Karate Kid stars Leigh as Cindy, a student at (you guessed it) Kickboxing Academy, a school preparing to take on their rival martial arts academy.

Also appearing in the film is her real-life brother, Christopher Khayman Lee, who plays ex-kickboxer Danny… and his own sister’s romantic lead. (You might recognize him from his days as the Red Ranger Andros from Power Rangers In Space.) Throughout the film, the two have several make-out sessions, at a time when she was only fifteen, and he was nineteen – and in a role that clearly should have been given to someone less… related… to the star.
Notice that these are all somewhat mainstream, not professional or amateur porn or erotica. There's plenty of such videos which claim to feature actual close relatives as performers. In these mainstream productions, unlike with porn, the performers are usually concentrating so much on their lines and movements, surrounded by crew and equipment, to the point it doesn't feel sexy to them at all. But I do wonder how many of them practiced in private to make it look as convincing as possible on the screen?

This also reminds me that just about everyone who has ever had nude/love scenes in movies or on stage or appeared nude in magazines (remember those?) or on websites has had living close relatives, most of whom have no doubt seen at least some of the imagery. I wonder how many consanguinamorous relationships have their generation in that?


None of this is to be confused with unrelated actors playing siblings while the actors had things for each other. That has been more common than people might think, and always has been. For a couple of old examples, there are scenes in the original Beverly Hills, 90210 in which Shannen Doherty can barely hide her lust for Jason Priestly, but in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off," Mathew Broderick and Jennifer Grey do a much better job of avoiding giving off those vibes.

Some comments were left after the article...
Dear Screenrant,
Despite the most popular show on television showcasing incest, it is NOT part of acceptable culture. Please refrain from writing articles (false and baseless ones at that) about this offensive subject.
Just because pop culture has brought it to the fore front of conversation does not mean it needs to be talked about. Please, please stop it. UGH.
I wonder if that person realizes that there are no doubt people in his life who are consanguinamorous? People his admires and respects?

Frankly, is way past time for Hollywood to seriously challenge the oppression of consanguinamorous people. There are actors, writers, directors, producers, and everyone else involved in making movies and television shows who have experience with consanguinamory, and it would be great if they would speak up and put their experiences into some sensitive productions.


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Wednesday, October 4, 2017

When Someone You Love Wants To Love You More

You may have come to this blog because you think or know someone in your family or closely related to you is attracted to you, or has a crush on you, or wants to get romantic or sexual with you. You may have had a mix of reactions to this, whether you've been shocked, surprised, confused, amused, bemused, worried, flattered, aroused, creeped out, repulsed, nervous, or some combination of these. So what do you do when a relative has a crush or very strong attraction to you?


These Feelings Are Normal and More Common Than You Think

These feelings are not so rare. There’s not necessarily any reason to get them to a mental health professional because they have these feelings. They are especially common when you were not raised by one another or with each other, but even if you were raised together or by one another, it's not unheard of.


These Feelings Aren't Wrong


Their feelings are their own. It is OK for them to have their feelings, and they certainly aren't alone in having such feelings.

And your feelings are yourown.


Their feelings do not require you to act one way or another, but doing nothing at all is probably the worst way to react.

If you're feeling the same as they are, or want to seriously consider adding this bond to your relationship, you might be better off going to this entry here.

But if you're somewhat unsure, ambivalent, wavering, or all the way over to the side of being fairly certain you want no part of such a situation, the rest of his entry is for you.



Initial Reaction


Unless you've been hoping for this moment, you should probably take some time to think it over, even if your initial internal reaction was "No!" If you've already reacted negatively to them, there's still a chance to smooth things over.


Are You Sure It is How They Feel?


As we like to say around here, thinking and knowing are two different things.

It’s pretty clear how they feel if they explicitly say that they want to get it on, or they made an unmistakable physical pass at you, or you’ve overheard them masturbating and saying your name, or you’ve discovered that they keep images of you that are sexy or explicit or are very suggestive, or the history/files on their smart phone, tablet, or computer reveals they’ve been thinking about how to get with you.

If you've got a vagina and you find that your underwear (especially used) keeps getting moved or disappears and reappears in their room, that’s a pretty strong signal on their part; there is only doubt if they are the same size as you, in which case there is a small chance they wanted to wear it (washed). If you find that your underwear/lingerie or toys keep getting moved or used, that’s a strong indicator. It is also something I advise against people doing, just FYI.

If they've left this very essay for you to find, then it should be clear.

If you have such clarity, You can skip down to the next section.

But if it hasn’t been that clear, there's a chance they're not making a play or inviting you to. They may not even want to act even if they do have feelings for you in that way.


If you only thinkthey might be interested, it could be a misunderstanding or maybe you are misreading them (or even projecting your own latent feelings).

Flirting or behaviors that would look like flirting to the average observer ignorant of your relation might be an indication, but those things aren't definitive if not explicit or blunt.

Maybe you've found out that they like (or even create) porn or erotica with incestuous themes. This does not necessarily mean they are attracted to you and want to have sex with you and are hoping to have sex with you. It's a very popular genre. Some people enjoy such material or even have a fetish for it without actually wanting to be with their own family members. Porn is usually very different from reality, after all. On the other hand, it can be a sign of interest.

Hints, clues, or signs likely to indicate they're interested:

  • They look for reasons to be around you, especially alone, without an apparent agenda. 
  • They suggest or arrange for you two to do things that romantic couples might do, even if it they try to make it seem like an accident (such as getting the two of you in a hotel room with just one bed). 
  • They have increased physical contact with you. 
  • You catch them staring at you or giving you lingering looks. 
  • They’ve started or increased discussions about sex with you, especially consanguineous sex and relationships, and especially if it involves “joking” about consanguinamory or something happening between the two of you. 
  • They express jealousy or envy towards your (potential) dates or lovers. 
  • The people they date or find most attractive have similarities to you in appearance, age, mannerisms, etc. They may even (try to) date your friends. 
  • They’ve “accidentally,” or have had excuses to, come in to where you are changing clothes or showering/bathing or have tried to call you in when they are changing clothes or showering/bathing when it hasn’t been typical for you to be in those circumstances together. 
  • They are dressing up more impressively than usual or in more revealing clothing around you for no apparent reason.
  • They’ve started to invite you to tell them how they look or if something they’re wearing is appropriate. 
  • They mention having a sexual dream that included you. Even if they play it off as funny or strange, they could be trying to see how you react.
None of these by themselves mean it is certain they are sexually attracted to you, but the more that you recognize them doing, the more likely they are.

If you're stillunsure and you don't want to come right out and ask them because it could be embarrassing, you can give them a chance to speak plainly about their feelings for you by talking about the subject in general. If you talk about it in a way that indicates to them that it is safe for them to talk with you about it and they can tell you anything, then they’ll reveal if they do feel that way for you. Some ways of doing this would be to say that you had a dream that included them, or that you’d consider it flattering if someone in the family thought you were attractive. You can say things like, "Is there anything on your mind you're not telling me? You can tell me anything, and I mean anything." Or something like, "You know, I've been thinking about how rare it can be for people to find a very strong, special connection to each other, and it is shame that some people think there is anything wrong with consenting adults loving each other in any way they want." There are many things you could say that will give them the confidence to be vulnerable with you.


You're Positive They Want to Jump Your Bones

No matter what your feelings are, you need to make it clear what boundaries, if any, you need to be in place.

Again, if you think you want to go for it, whether you’ve been hoping they feel that way or you’re curious or want to explore or experiment, go ahead and see this.

If you need limits on what is going to happen, when, where, etc., then you need to discuss that with them, as you should for any romantic or sexual relationship you’d have with anyone. Maybe your limits include cuddling, maybe kissing, maybe simply being naked around each other, maybe masturbating in front of each other, or touching each other or various forms of sexual contact. Maybe you want to move more slowly than you have with others (although many people in these situations end up moving faster than they have with others, and often regret that they didn’t get together sooner.)

If you think there is no way you'd want to get any more physically affectionate or romantic than you already do with them, do you know why? Consider if you’re internalizing a senseless prejudice against something that could be very enjoyable for both or all of you and bring you closer together. It might be a good idea to tell the other person you need some time to think about things. Sometimes, people who are initially shocked or have a negative reaction, after thinking it over, realize they have a mutual interest. The thought that they want you might have caught you off-guard or shocked you. Take some time of think about it. This is someone who loves you and knows you. It had to take some courage on their part to be vulnerable with you if they volunteered to you how they feel.

While there is no good reason to have laws or taboos against such relationships, you may have a reason to not have such a relationship, at least with this person. After all, each person needs to decide for themselves that they’re going to do and with whom when it comes to physical contact and romantic activities.

If you're not going to further or continue sexual or romantic affection, it would be best to let them down easy, and you probably want to let them down easy, unless they’ve been coercive in their approach. Who likes to be rejected?

Some things you might want to say, depending on the situation:

  • You’re flattered 
  • You love them
  • You’re not upset with them 
  • You just can’t go there because your feelings for them, while loving and pleasant, are entirely non-romantic and/or non-sexual 
  • You’re not open to a romantic or sexual relationship anyone right now (or anymore) 
  • You’re committed to someone else/others and do not want to jeopardize that 
  • You just can’t take the possible risks
Even if you already reacted in a way that wasn’t exactly letting them down easy, you can go back to them and tell them that you’re flattered, you’re sorry you reacted that way, but you were caught off guard, then tell them one or more of the statements above.

If you take the route of not “going there,” be sure to be mindful of what you’re doing around them because you do not want to tease them or give them false hope. It is tough enough for them to deal with the rejection; don’t add to the difficulty.

Also, they may be consanguinamorous as their orientation, and even if they aren't they might pursue a consanguinamorous relationship with someone else. Here's how to be an ally.

If you'd like to contact me to discuss these matters further, you can write me at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com

(Disclaimer: This entry assumes you live, or would move to, someplace where affection would not be a criminal matter.)



How To Pull Off Living With Your Consanguineous Lover




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Tuesday, October 3, 2017

Intergenerational Relationships Can Work

Are you in or considering an intergenerational relationship? Are you against such relationships?

By “intergenerational,” I’m talking about ADULT generations. I’m talking about CONSENTING ADULTS. I just wanted to get that out of the way. I’m not talking about adults preying on minors, pedophilia, etc.

The Bad

Although not illegal, nonconsanguineous relationships between adults with a sizable age difference do face prejudice and discrimination. Stereotypical assumptions, expressed as though they are automatically negative, are made about both the younger and older people involved in such relationships.

The older person, depending on age/gender, is often said to be:


  • In denial about aging
  • Trying to relive their youth
  • Taking advantage of” or “using” the younger person(s)
  • Having a midlife crisis
  • Immature
  • Incapable of relating to people their own age
  • Controlling
  • Looking for a nurse
  • Cradle-robbing
  • Avoiding “real” commitment
  • Just looking for sex
The younger person, depending on age, is often said to be:
  • Trying to feel older or more mature
  • Flattered by the attention of an older person
  • Having mommy or daddy issues
  • A gigolo or looking for a sugar daddy 
  • A gold digger
  • “Taking advantage of” or “using” the older person(s)
  • Looking to be controlled or taken care of
  • Avoiding “real” commitment
  • Just looking for sex
While the gossips and finger-waggers might see each of those as pejorative, the people in the relationships might not see all of those as bad. For example, what if it is “just” about sex? That goes for many relationships between people close in age. What’s wrong with consensual sex? There’s nothing wrong with an older person looking for a sexual partner with more energy and tighter skin, or a younger person looking for a sexual partner with more competence and confidence. Also, many of the same criticisms can be credibly applied to relationships between people of the same age.

Regardless, there are people in these relationships who have a healthy relationship and are happy, fulfilled, and getting what they need and want. Some of these relationships last for the long term. Discriminating against people who are in these relationships often involves jealousy, envy, ageism, sexism, and sex-negativity. There is this idea that a relationship has to be monogamous, lead to marriage and baby-making, and last until death, and intergenerational relationships are not seen by people asserting this notion as ideal for that, even though it is possible for such relationships to be monogamous, lead to marriage and baby-making, and last until death. But that doesn’t stop the sex police, who also bash cohabitation without marriage, polyamory and other forms of ethical nonmonogamy, being childless by choice, gay and lesbian relationships, and often consanguineous and interracial relationships.

Although I don’t talk about myself a lot on this blog, I will say that I have had multiple long-term relationships with older women. I was not specifically seeking older women; it is just how things worked out, in part because I’ve always had friends of different generations. I do not regret these relationships. The first was when I was still a teenager (although of legal age) with a woman in her mid-40s. That started out as a friendship. It lasted as a sexual relationship for about a year and a half. In my 20s, I was with a woman in her 50s. There are other examples, but you get the idea.

In the past, especially with women being treated as property, incubators, domestic servants, and needing males to represent them in public life, it was somewhat socially acceptable for certain men to marry women much younger than them. Now women who freely choose to be with older men are seen by some as setting equality back. On the plus side is the increasing acceptability of relationships between older women and younger men.

Those who express their prejudice against such relationships will often say something along the lines of…

“She’s old enough to be your mother!”
“He’s old enough to be your father!”
“She’s young enough to be your daughter!”
“He’s young enough to be your son!”

But when asked, “So what?” the person objecting to this consensual relationship between adults will almost never have a rational answer. The real answer is usually either that they wouldn’t want such a relationship for themselves, or, conversely, that they wish they had a relationship like that and are envious. Neither of those should have any power over anyone else’s consensual relationships.


The Good

There are some advantages to intergenerational relationships, depending on whether people are looking for a deep and lasting relationship or something more casual.

The couple or polycule will have the perspective, experiences, and likely a circle of friends from at least two generations, instead of just one.

Younger participants may bring vigor, vitality, and fresh perspectives while older participants may bring experience, understanding, and stability.

Older participants may impart reassurance and guidance to younger participants, and the younger participants may provide the older participants with help getting out of a rut and a feeling of renewal.

Male and female libidos are often not at the same level at the same ages, and sometimes an intergenerational relationship brings together people who would not be happy if they were restricted to only being with people their age.

Male fertility generally lasts longer than female fertility. That means someone who wants a child can still have one with an older man, and someone who doesn’t want a child doesn’t risk unwanted pregnancies with an older woman.

If it makes them happy, isn't that good?



Considerations For Those Considering Such a Relationship

For anyone:


1. Recognize you are in different phases of life. That can have advantages and disadvantages. If you do pursue this relationship, make the most of the advantages and prepare for the disadvantages.

2. Be forewarned that you're going to get some judgmental, jealous, and envious people wagging their fingers at you.

3. These relationships are often entered into by someone who has one or more children. If so:  a) The other parent(s) of your lover’s children, if alive, are likely to always be involved somehow in your lover’s life, and therefore your life; b) Any child and their parent might not like you (or your own children) or the idea of your lover having a new lover; c) Even if your lover’s child likes you, those feelings may change as they get older, especially if you and your lover have a child together; d) If your lover pays (or is liable for) child support, depending on the laws where you live, YOUR income can be figured into that if you get married, meaning that you could be legally required to help pay your lover’s child support.

4. Children of the older lover may have an attraction to or crush on the younger lover and may resent their parents because of it, or may be jealous of the affection their parents has for the lover. Parents of the younger lover may have an attraction to the older lover, causing certain tensions.


If you are younger:

1. Understand that because your lover has more life experience, your lover may have certain power advantages over you, but almost every relationship has power differences.

2. Understand that if you want to have (more) children and grow old with someone, you're not as likely to do it with a lover multiple decades older as you would with one your own age. (Even if you don't feel right now that you'll want those things, your feelings could easily change in the future.)

3. Be aware some people look for younger lovers for reasons with which you might not be comfortable, but that can be true of relationships of any age; as long as you look for warning signs and stand up for yourself, there shouldn't be a problem.

4. Understand you're still young and you've got a lot of life and personal growth ahead of you.


If you are older:

1. Be aware some people look for older lovers for reasons with which you might not be comfortable, but that can be true of relationships of any age; as long as you look for warning signs and stand up for yourself, there shouldn't be a problem.

2. Understand that your younger lover may not be as set in their ways as you are or know themselves as well as you know yourself. He or she still has much personal growth ahead of them and what they want could change more easily than what you want (especially in terms of getting married, having children, and long-term goals) making you no longer compatible. He or she make think they can be happy with an aging partner, but they’re less likely to truly understand that really means than someone your age or older than you.

3. You shouldn’t assume the younger person knows as much as you do, will relate to in-your-lifetime history like you do, or will get your cultural references. But nor should you assume they are ignorant.


Conclusion

As with any other relation that is subject to stigma and discrimination (casual, interracial, international, interfaith, gay/lesbian, polyamorous, open, consanguinamorous, D/s, etc.) intergenerational relationships shouldn’t be dismissed or discriminated against just because they aren’t what someone else sees as ideal. Consenting adults should be free to have the relationships they want with each other. It is up to them to decide if a relationship is right for them or not. Sure, there are some bad intergenerational relationships, just like there are bad relationships of any circumstance. The bad relationships should not mean that nobody should be supported by family and friends or discriminated against because of who they love and how they love them.

Those who object to these relationships because of a personal belief that lovers should die within a short time of each other are ignoring that fact that people who are about the same age could have very different longevity, and the surviving lover(s) can find new loves.

Whether they last for life or for a season, these relationships can be beneficial to all involved.





Should I date an older woman? Should I date an older man? Is it OK to date a younger man? It is OK to date a younger woman? What about intergenerational dating? What about intergenerational marriage? What about intergenerational sex? Is it OK to have a younger boyfriend? Is it OK to have a younger girlfriend?

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Monday, October 2, 2017

Dementia declining among American seniors

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Why Polyamory Will Gain Acceptance Faster

It’s not going to take as long for polyamorists to get our freedoms, including the freedom to marry, as it is taking (monogamist) gays and lesbians.

First, I need to have a bit of clarification here. Polyamory has always been around with some public awareness, whatever forms it has taken or whichever labels have been applied, especially if we go with the broad term ethical nonmonogamy instead.

What I mean is that in the US, as well as many other countries, there was a sustained period of trying to force everyone, or at least everyone but the elite, into heterosexual, gender-roled, married monogamy with spouses that were “acceptable” by class, race, religion, etc. Those deemed not suitable for marriage were often kept out of public life in general. For example, people with certain disabilities were expected to stay home or be institutionalized so as to not cause discomfort to people who would be uneasy around them. That oppression is in the process of being dismantled. We are ending the prosecutions, the persecutions, the stigmatizing, and everything else that makes it so people go into hiding (or hiding an important part of who they are) because of who they are and who they love.

Polyamorists haven't had a "Stonewall" moment. Many people cite the Stonewall Riots of 1969 as the start of gay and lesbian people fighting back against such persecution. It has been 44 years and same-gender couples are still barred from legally marrying in most US states and LGBT people still need employment protections (ENDA). But the momentum is rapidly building, especially with the recent Supreme Court actions on DOMA and PropH8 and the death of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” for military service, and all of the public figures who are coming out in support of the same-gender freedom to marry. There have been so many advancements since 1969.

Note that earlier in the 1960s, the US adopted laws to protect racial minorities nationwide, and the Loving v. Virginia case struck down bans on the interracial freedom to marry, over a hundred years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Women got the vote nationwide in 1920 and have made much progress, but are still on the journey.

So will polyamorists have to wait a couple of generations?

Happily, the answer is no. Here why:



1) Momentum. Note that gay civil rights have made progress much faster than feminist and racial civil rights. Likewise, rights for nonmonogamists and people who don’t want to marry at all will not take as long as gay rights. Momentum is building, and polyamorists should be exceedingly appreciative of the work done by the racial, feminist, gay, and lesbian civil rights champions.

2) Smaller opposition. Opposition to polyamory and the polygamous freedom to marry comes almost entirely from specific segments of religious conservatives, more and more of whom are warming up to the fact that civil marriages are not a threat to their churches and that it is destructive and wasteful to concentrate on trying to control adult relationships, especially when it comes to people who are not members of their church. There are some who oppose the polygamous freedom to marry out of concern for tax/benefit issues, but those concerns can be addressed without denying any adults the freedom to marry.

3) Less motivated opposition.
Most of the above considered “line in the sand” to be the same-gender freedom to marry and are already resigned to polygamous freedom to marry upon national establishment of the same-gender freedom to marry. While some monogamist LGBT people bristle at the connection, what matters is that a connection exists in the mind of those who oppose the freedoms and they do not want to continue fighting one freedom if the other is established. Those who identify as LGBT monogamists have much more in common with those who identify as heterosexual monogamists than some heteros realize, but in the prejudiced mind, monogamist LGBT people and polyamorists are in the same big “other” category.

4) More existing understanding. Some strictly heterosexual people are disgusted by the thought of gay sex and much of the now-diminishing opposition from heterosexuals to the same-gender freedom to marry came from that. Or, if not disgusted, they (especially males) simply couldn’t understand how someone might find someone of the same gender sexually or romantically attractive. But almost everyone can understand (or has personally experienced) being romantically or sexually attracted to more than one person at the same time. They’ve had the feelings themselves; this is one reason they bring up polyamory when discussing the freedom to marry. While someone may not personally want to pursue polyamory, they are more likely to avoid opposing those who do. Also, for religious conservatives, there is a heritage of polyamory in their traditions and clear scriptural prohibitions are lacking in most traditions’ scriptures.

5) Strict monogamy is rare. Most people are mostly or strictly heterosexual in how they see themselves and live, even if they’ve had some experiences with someone of the same gender. Very few people are truly and strictly monogamists sexually, emotionally, romantically over the course of a lifetime. Extending rights to polyamorous people, including the polygamous freedom to marry, deals with a reality that everyone has experienced. For example, if someone has children with more than one person, and they are all agreeable to a marriage structure involving three or more people, why deny them that? Relationships, including marriage, usually involve more than one bond (erotic, romantic, friendship, cohabitational, parental, legal, financial, professional, shared interests) between the people involved, and sometimes one of those bonds may diminish or end with one person and begin or increase with another, but there is no reason to end the earlier relationship; there could be good reasons nobody wants to end the relationship. For example, a woman might share sex, residence, children, and a business with one man, and sex, romance, friendship, and a love of theatre with another.

6) Political compatibility. Progressives, libertarians, and conservatives can all find much to like in polyamory, which is why you can find polyamorists in just about all areas of the political map. Polyamorists who are progressives see cooperative and efficient living in polyamory. Libertarians (who generally oppose government restriction on adult behavior that doesn’t violate another’s property or person) and conservative polyamorists like the idea of people relying on each other rather than a government program.

7) Increased compassion. More and more people now recognize that letting consenting adults have their relationships and love each other as they want is the right thing to do, and opposing relationships between consenting adults is not only mean-spirited, but a waste.

8) Experience. While many LGBT people are monogamists, some socially/politically active LGBT people are polyamorists or poly-friendly, and they are already motivated and working towards full marriage equality, and experienced in advancing these civil rights.

While some people fighting for LGBT rights or the same-gender freedom to marry only care about LGBT rights and monogamy, or even reject association with or comparison to polyamorists (including LGBT polyamorists) others have shown solidarity. Polyamorists owe a great deal of thanks to those in the racial, feminist, gay and lesbian civil rights movements for opening minds and establishing rights for adults, as well as continuing solidarity in the fight for those rights. Polyamorists will get their rights faster not because the movement is stronger than the LGBT rights movement, but rather exactly because the LGBT rights movement has been so strong.

Relationship rights and full marriage equality for all adults is going to happen. We’re trying to make it happen sooner rather than later.

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Sunday, October 1, 2017

When To Hold Back

Jane has some considerations that might indicate it isn't a good idea to pursue a consanguinamorous relationship.

These are mostly good suggestions for caution in pursuing any relationship, although I think there are some minors close in age to each other who are mature enough. On the other hand, my general advice to minors and very young adults is not to commit to exclusive relationships because most of them need more time to figure out who they are, what they have to offer, and what they need.

Here's what I've written about deciding whether or not to pursue.

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