Why Men Choose Polyandry

Ruth asked at a Big Internet Portal's question-and-answer service...

Why do men choose polyandry(a woman with multiple husbands)?
What's the appeal? Is their jealousy? How does sex work? Is it akward knowing that the other husband has had sex with your wife?I'd like to understand how polyandrous relationships work, especially from mens point of view. Could you handle your wife having another husband?

Why do men choose a monogamous marriage? Why do men choose not to marry at all? Why do some men choose a polygynous marriage, or a group marriage? It’s going to be different for different people, but you can find some common reasons that pop up frequently. It is a combination of needs and wants, including social, emotional, financial, sexual, etc.

A man may choose polyandry because he is bisexual, or because he enjoys seeing his wife with another man, or because his wife has a higher libido than he does, or for reasons that are entirely nonsexual.

You can see the very good Best Answer if you keep reading.

I am married to a wonderful, challenging, sexy and creative woman. But, she has another lover, as well. That other lover, in this case, is a woman, too, and it's a fact that we all love each other, too.

This does not exactly equate to the question you asked, I know, but I think some of what I can tell you bears directly on your questions. Because make no mistake. Unlike the stereotypical FMF polygamous relationship, our relationship would be more accurately described as an MFF (or maybe FFM) polyamorous relationship. My wife has a husband and a wife, if you get my meaning, and the fact that her wife and I also love each other and sleep together (all three of us sleep together, that is) is incidental.

In my case, the appeal is that I love them both very much. But there are also some powerful benefits, and I'm sure those benefits would be true of a MFM relationship, as well.

1. Economic - We have our own home (which I built, myself, for the most part), and we have no mortgage. We have three incomes to fund our family.

2. We have three competent adults to help raise and nurture our children. Our three older kids have turned out to be remarkable, amazing and dedicated young people, and our two younger children seem to be headed the same way.

3. We are able to divide up the chores in terms of talent, temperment and time. Many hands make light work, as the saying goes.

4. We have three professional, intelligent minds to help solve problems, and to give differing persectives on answers to problems.

5. No matter how busy our schedules, there is almost always somebody around to lend a shoulder to cry on, or to snuggle with.

As to your other questions -

I'm not sure our relationship would work as well if we were not equal, loving partners. The fact that both of the Ladies involved are bisexual, and love each other as well as me is really the cement that bonds us. I am unsure how two heterosexual men would find the ability to bond, but I imagine it can happen.

Jealousy - well, in our case, there's not much opportunity, because we have one big bed, and we all sleep in it. But, early in our relationship, there might have been a twinge, now and again, when one of us would be at work and the other two could spend time together. We dealt with that problem head on, talking things through carefully, honestly and openly several times, and easing those primitive fears.

Why shouldn’t they be able to have their marriage recognized by law?

(This is an entry I bumped up because it is as timely as it was when it was originally posted.)

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #6

“Your relationship will hurt children.” This is usually said by people who themselves hurt children by denying rights to the parents of those children and telling the children that their parents are wrong for loving each other, perpetuating a stigma about the children and their families.

Don’t want children of these relationships to be hurt? Then stop hurting their families.

Adults having a relationship with each other, adults reproducing together, and adults raising children together are three different things. Adults can do any one of those without doing the other two, or any two of those without doing the third. Or, to put it another way, we’re talking about sex, relationships, and marriage, not about reproduction or adoption or parenting. Most sex does not result in a birth.

We don’t deny people their right to be together because they can’t or won’t reproduce. We don’t deny people their right to be together because they won’t be good candidates for adoption. We don’t test people on their parenting skills before we allow them to marry, but if we did, a lot of the prejudiced people who want to deny rights to others would fail, while many people who are still fighting for their relationship rights would pass with flying colors.

So this reason to oppose equality already fails. But for the sake of argument let’s assume there will be children.



A polyamorous relationship generally means a child is going to have more supervision  and additional role models in a cooperative environment. How is that supposed to be inferior to having bickering parents and stepparents from supposedly monogamous marriage? It is legal to reproduce and raise children alone, or with others in the home who aren't monogamous spouses. A woman can live with both fathers of her children, but can't legally marry both even though that is what everyone wants? Why deny polyamorous people protections, including marriage?

Anti-equality people claim a study shows children from polygynous families have "considerably lower" survival rates, but the data is from nineteenth century frontier areas and places in Africa where diseases and genocide are significant problems. The study doesn’t address polyandry, same-gender polygamy, polygamy consisting or multiple men and women, and other forms of polyamory. The other claim is that adolescent boys are driven from polygynous (again, just polygynous and not any other form of polyamory)  societies, but there are many adolescent boys driven from their heterosexual monogamous homes because they are gay, or boys who run away for the sake of personal freedom, rather than deal with familial or peer pressure to adhere to certain rules and expectations. Or they can’t stand their “monogamous” parent’s new girlfriend or boyfriend.

In a consanguinamorous relationship, adopted or step-parented children are not going to suffer in comparison to nonconsanguineous relationships.

Many people wrongly say that any children born to consanguineous parents will have birth defects, and that this is a good reason to ban such relationships. However, most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. It is entirely legal for people with obvious or hidden serious genetic diseases to date, have sex, marry, and have children. Why should healthy consanguineous lovers be denied their rights? Unless someone is willing to deny reproductive rights and medical privacy to others and force everyone to take genetic tests and bar carriers and the congenitally disabled and women over 35 from marrying or having children, then equal protection principles prevent this from being a justification to bar this freedom of association and freedom to marry, let alone reproductive rights.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too. But there are people born with problems who have made great contributions to the world, and genetically healthy people born to close relatives are common enough that we all know some, whether we know their true genetic parentage or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. I personally know children from such relationships who are healthy and bright; adorable children and attractive adults.

Where does this knowing what is best for the children of other people stop? Should single parents lose custody? Should we compel pregnant women to get a specific kind of prenatal care? Are we going to genetically screen and then sterilize people with genetic problems? There are children being raised right now by people who want to get married, and yet are denied their right to marry.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #5

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #7 

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National Sisters Day

Apparently it is National Sisters Day.

So, to all of you sisters out there, happy you!

As always, feel free to comment with appreciation for your sister.

We've heard from, and about, some wonderful sisters since we started this blog, including sisters who are allies and sisters who are lovers.

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If She Wasn't Serious, She Wouldn't Have Revealed Her Feelings

There are better places than Reddit to have a serious discussion about consanguinamory, but I thought this recent post by someone with the screen name DaughterNeeds was an interesting one. This person claims to be an involved/experienced daughter, and titled the post "Respect your daughter choice and say yes"...

Actually, the only time I felt unwanted or unloved or hurt or betrayed was when my father originally told me no. He was worried that he had somehow done something wrong or that somehow I was confused.

To the fathers who are out there let me assure you of something: If your daughter comes to you can rest assured that she is sure and yes she means it! We are socially programmed from birth to believe such feelings or thoughts are immoral and unethical. If your daughter comes to you longing for you, she has had more than enough time to think, rethink, and think some more. She has likely struggled to come to terms with how she feels and she has likely contemplated a million reasons on why she should squash her feelings and most certainly has she has tried. Unknowing to you she has most certainly tried her whole life to force herself to feel for someone else as strongly and as instinctively she feels for you.

She makes a good point. Unless the situation is a recent reunion/introduction, or she's  literally insane to the point she has no idea what she's doing, a daughter making a clear pass at her father (or mother) must have thought about it a lot already. It might seem sudden to the parent, but it isn't to the daughter who is opening her heart and being extremely vulnerable.

I do believe genetic attraction is real. I too have a biological clock as it were, just as we all do; only my clock knew that my father was who I needed. I'll say again, needed. It was not just a fantasy or a phase or a silly want that I could dismiss. Deep down everything is telling me this is what I need. And until I actually got it I was not completely satisfied with my life as something always felt as if was missing until I got what I needed.

Sounds like she might be consanguinamorous in orientation.

When my father first told me no it broke my heart. I felt rejected on a level I could not ever put into words. Even today, looking back, that feeling still makes me feel heartbroken. Nothing he could say could make that level of pain and disappointment go away. I felt so hurt and even betrayed somehow. Now mind you, it was not that my father was not attracted to me (he was, very much so, but he never let me know), but rather it was as I said, he was worried that somehow he had done something wrong. He had not. In fact, it was because he had done everything right that I had felt so safe and secure with him and it allowed me to come to him with how I felt, even after fighting with myself for all those years (trying to suppress it).

Eventually, my father came around and we are in a happy committed relationship (going on six years). The only resentment I have ever had toward him was when he first would not validate my need for him (out of his own fears). I understand why he did but it would have been easier a lot sooner for the both of us if he had consented sooner. It was the only time I felt negativity and resentment toward my father.

Something I've heard over and over again from people who are involved is that their own regret was not getting together sooner.

We have been together now for five years and we both admit that our relationship is more magical than anything we could have dreamed of. We've talked in detail about how everything seems so much more intense (emotionally, physically, and spiritually). We recently gave birth to a happy baby boy who is almost a year old (9 months old). He is completely healthy and already mimicking early language skills. I feel completely happy, content, and completely satisfied with my life and the relationship I have with my father (as does he).

Congrats to them!

It is important for fathers or mothers to consider that a daughter has thought carefully and seriously about it already. Don't jump to the conclusion that it must be a fleeting, unconnected moment that will pass. There are other considerations, of course, and each person must decide for themselves what affections they are willing to share and receive. Taking things slowly is an option.

If you're having these feelings, reading this might help. If you think someone in your family has these feelings for you, this might help.

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Same-Gender Marriage and Consanguinamory in the US

Gay marriage (or same-sex marriage, or most accurately same-gender marriage) and consanguinamory (romantic and/or erotic love between close relatives) are usually (but not always) two different things.

As of this posting, there are people fretting that allowing more consenting adults their freedom to marry is going to result in... even more consenting adults having the freedom to marry! Oh, the horror! Because the limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry is now legal nationwide in the US, some people are asking if people in consanguineous relationships (or adult consensual incest) are going to have their rights and be treated like, you know, people.

Please note everything we're discussing here is about consensual sex and relationships between adults. We're not talking about rape or molestation.


In the US, the bigotry against marriage equality is rapidly losing out. We recently had the Supreme Court decide for the nationwide limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry. The denial of marriage equality still currently extends to preventing first cousins from marrying in a little over half of the states. If you consider cousin marriage incestuous, then the remaining states, which allow marriages between first cousins (some with ridiculous restrictions) are where same-gender first cousins can enter into monogamous same-gender "incestuous" marriage.



There are a few states with laws against consensual sex between first cousins, including North and South Dakota, Utah, Texas, Nevada, Kentucky, and Mississippi. The states that neither marry nor criminalize will generally allow first cousins to be together without marriage.

There are some states that do not criminalize consensual incest between closer relatives than cousins, but with very few exceptions, they will not marry those lovers. Most US states still have laws against consensual incest (consanguinamory), and in most of them, people do continue to be prosecuted for simply loving each other.

Laws against gay sex have been struck down by the Supreme Court. So, gay sex is now legal nationwide, consanguinamory isn’t yet.

Mixed-gender consanguinamory (such as brother-sister sex) involves sex between consenting adults of who are closely related.*

Gay marriage is a commitment between consenting adults of the same gender.

Those are usually not the same things.

Here are some things they do have in common: 1. They are between consenting adults. 2. They don’t hurt anybody. 3. Both have been subject to discrimination and being banned by the sex-negative busybodies who like to interfere in the love lives of others. 4. There is no rational reason, consistently applied to other relationships, as to why either of these are or were banned in certain places.  5. LGBT people do not choose their orientation and people do not choose the parents to whom they are born. 6. Gay relationships and consanguineous relationships have always been part of humanity, and are common around the world.

Otherwise, they are two entirely different freedoms to marry. I support both freedoms to marry, and others, because I support relationship rights for all and full marriage equality.

An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults (and any of those without the others), without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. Don't like it? Then don't do it. (That’s a good, easy response to bigots that doesn't throw anyone under the bus.)

Different people have different likes and dislikes, different biases and prejudices than others. Some LGBT people are in consanguinamorous relationships. Other LGBT people are supportive, some neutral, and some disgusted by the idea. Just like everyone else. But nobody's disgust should interfere in another's life.

Consenting adults may do things with each other that might disgust a majority of other  adults, but that disgust of others should not prevent the consenting adults from having their sex or love lives. Each of us should stand up for the relationship rights of all consenting adults. Gay sex may disgust someone. Heterosexual sex may disgust another. BDSM may disgust someone else. Interracial sex may disgust someone else. Polyamory may disgust one person. Consanguinamory may disgust another. So what? The disgusted person doesn’t have to do it, but should recognize that other adults should be free to have orientations, feelings, and relationships they may not understand, and free to express their sexual desires with, and affections for, other consenting adults in the ways they want.


*Some places include adoptive or step relations under the criminalization of incest, even though there is no biological relation between the participants.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #5

“It's not natural." Many people have been embarrassed by making this argument, because it is so easy to refute by a cursory survey of sexual, mating, and partnering habits of various animals. But invariably, the person saying that a relationship should not be allowed because they think it is unnatural constantly enjoys things that aren’t natural, from their smart phones to their toiletries to their food to their clothing to their transportation to their housing… on and on it goes. “Hey! You can’t ride a bicycle! It’s not natural!” See how ridiculous that is?

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #4

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #6 

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An Open Letter to Mackenzie Phillips

Dear Ms. Phillips,

Congrats on the role in Orange is the New Black. A recent article by Keryn Donnelly at mamamia.com.au about your role was headlined with what I call the "i" word, because it gets a lot of attention. In fact, almost all of the article was about your past, rather than what you're doing now as far as acting and show biz. Your longevity in show biz is quite impressive, especially considering what you've endured.. I do remember watching your earlier roles, and I'm glad you're on such an esteemed show.

Here's what the article, which I'm assuming accurately quotes you, contained that caught my attention.

Many members of Phillips’ family have not forgiven her for exposing her relationship with her famous father. When she released her book in 2009, some spoke out against her and claimed it was unfair she had come forward with these allegations when her father was not around to defend himself.

It seems to me you were unfairly attacked.

If you were abused, then it was your story to tell regardless of whether your abuser was still alive or not.

If you were not abused, it was still your story to tell and you spared your father undue attacks while he was still alive.

But let's continue...

But Phillips says she’s made peace with her past.

“I have to say that I loved my father, and I still do. I’ve been trying to come to terms with this very difficult past,” she told Winfrey.

“I can’t be the only one this has happened to. Someone needs to put a face on not only non-consensual incest, but consensual incest, and I know that I can’t be the only one who’s lived through this. So in finding this redemption, maybe I’m helping someone else.”

You are exactly right.

Someone needs to speak up about both these two very different things that are often conflated: abuse by a close relative and consanguinamory. They are two very different things. It is our contention that the stigma and even criminalization attached to consanguinamory hinders effective prevention and prosecution of cases of abuse. It is also unjust to interfere in the love lives of consenting adults.

Because of your book and subsequent interviews, you've probably heard secrets people have, both about abuse and about consanguinamory. You've probably heard such secrets from celebrities and from fans, maybe even complete strangers you just happened to encounter.

Maybe you should be involved in raising awareness? Or maybe you just want to connect with people who don't lump all sexual activity between close relatives into the abuse category. Please feel free to reach out. As with anyone else who contacts me, I never share what someone tells my privately (even with their own lover) unless they grant me permission to do so.

I can't know for sure if your physical relationship with your father was abuse, consensual, or a mix of both. I'm not even sure if either of you could know for sure, given the mind-altering substances you both were using. I do reject the assertion that some people make that any sexual relationship between an adult and their parent is abuse by the parent. I do know that there are adults who do have consensual sex with family members, whether on a recreational level or a spousal level. I have seen it myself.


People often cite a power differential as to why such relationships should not be considered consensual. It is Discredited Argument #20. Where does the power differential end when it comes to parent-child? Is it different between father-daughter, mother-son, mother-daughter, and father-son? What if the parent is 50 years old and the child 33? What if the parent is 70 and the child 53? What if the child was raised by someone else? Why not just let consenting adults do what they want when it comes to sex?

Thank you for saying what you did. If that's as far as you'll go with this, that's fine. However, I would welcome your contact, encouragement, or general support in helping to make consent clear, and honored. Abusers need to be stopped. And nobody should be rejected by family or abused, especially by their own government, for consenting to love, sex, residence, or marriage with a close relative.

You are welcome to join our forum under a screen name, where you can compare your own experiences to those of others.

-Keith Pullman of Full Marriage Equality

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Northern Ireland Needs Full Marriage Equality

Northern Ireland is the only region of the UK that doesn't even have the limited monogamous same-sex freedom to marry. This is currently making news.

Like the rest of the planet, Northern Ireland should get full marriage equality so that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, will be free to marry any and all consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

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This is How You Contact Keith

There are multiple ways to contact Keith, the person behind this blog.

1) Email is great! It is the best way. Keith's address is fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com. It also works to contact Keith at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

2) On the Wire messaging app: fullmarriageequality

3) On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/fullmarriageequality

4) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/FullMEquality - You can send Direct Messages.

5) There is a sister Tumblr to this blog. You can submit an "ask," including anonymously. You can also send a private message if you are signed in to a Tumblr account. If you submit an ask anonymously, you can't get a private response unless you provide an email address or a Facebook or Twitter or Wire or Tumblr account at which you can be reached. Say you want a private response if you don't want it published.

6) Comment here on this blog! You can comment after this entry (below) or any other entry, and you can do so anonymously if you'd like. Again, if you submit a comment anonymously, you can't get a private response unless you provide an email address or a Facebook or Twitter or Wire or Tumblr account at which you can be reached. Say you want a private response if you don't want your comment published. Comments have to be approved to be published, so you can write stuff you want Keith to see but you don't want published.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #4

“My religion is against it.” If you don’t want an (adult) intergenerational, interracial, same-gender, polygamous, or consanguineous relationship or marriage, then don’t have one. But we should all have the freedoms of religion and association and in places like the US, we have separation of church and state, so this can’t be a justification for denying marriage equality or other relationships rights.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #3

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #5 

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Taking the Steps

I have frequently seen the question asked, “It is incest to date my stepbrother?” or “Would marrying my stepsister be incestuous?”

Romance, dating, sex, or marriage between step relations is not literally consanguinamory, but is often subject to the same prejudices, which in some places and cases includes criminalization, as consanguinamorous relationships. With Discredited Argument #18 not a factor, the excuse to try to deny others their relationships is usually Discredited Arguments #1, 3, 19, or 21.

Although someone may try to control our relationships, we can’t effectively control what other people do with their love lives and we shouldn’t try. We don’t pick who our family members love or marry. As such, sometimes someone is brought into our lives as a step relation, such as a stepbrother, stepsister, stepmother, or stepfather whether we like it or not.

Sometimes, we like it. A lot.



Perhaps the most common connection between step relationships is when adults marry and their adolescent or young adult children, who are made stepsiblings, find they are mutually attracted. The Westermarck Effect, which describes the suppression of sexual attraction between people raised together in the same home or close quarters, isn’t experienced by everyone but doesn’t have even a chance to be experienced if young people don’t meet or don’t spend much time together until their pre-teen years or later, as often happens in these cases.

Each of us is our parent’s child. If the person we share genes with and raised us is attracted to someone, is it really surprising that we’d be attracted to that someone’s child or sibling? This is especially the case if new stepsiblings spend time under the same roof, perhaps on a full-time basis.

There is no good reason why the relationship of persons A and B should prevent the relationship of persons C and D.

But what about when one person ends up having two lovers from the same family? That can happen if there is a relationship between a stepparent and a stepchild, including cases in which the stepparent never knew the stepchild as a minor. (As always, I’m talking about consenting adults in this entry, or minors close in age to each other.) Perhaps things didn’t work out between the stepparent and the parent, or the parent died, or there’s a polyamorous situation, meaning the parent is still involved. Sometimes, someone’s stepparent is actually from their generation or at least closer in age to them than their parent, due to their parent having entered into an intergenerational relationship. The important thing to remember is that we are talking about consenting adults in these cases. One person’s prejudice against intergenerational relationships or against someone having more than one lover from the same family should not have any control over such consensual relationships.

Relationships like these have existed throughout history. There are also other relationships that have meant someone has (or has had) more than one lover from the same family. Traditional polyandry usually involves brothers marrying the same woman, and many polygynous males marry sisters. Having both mother and daughter or father and son as lovers is a common fantasy, and does happen. (I have had my own experience.)

Someone considering a relationship with a stepsibling, stepparent, or adult stepchild should make many of the same considerations as I have encouraged people to make when it comes to consanguinamorous relationships, and, if applicable, what I wrote about intergenerational relationships.

Parents may not like it when their stepchild gets together with their child, but the parent should remember that it wasn’t the children that created the environment in which they found themselves. Isn’t it better they get along rather than fight? Anyone upset about step relations getting together should read this.

Family strife is one thing. Law is another. There is no good reason to have laws discriminating against adults for their consensual relationships.

Are you, or have you been, involved with a step relation, or someone who later became one? Tell us about it by commenting.

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This Is Exciting: Risk and Reward

There's a new project that you should know about as a Friend of Full Marriage Equality. "Risk and  Reward" is an upcoming movie to which you can contribute. Even if you can't contribute monetarily right now, you can help get the word out.

Follow the movie on Twitter and  retweet them.

Like the movie's Facebook page and share what it posts.

It is critical to support projects like this. Visibility, representation, solidarity, and opening minds are all needed to secure the rights of all adults to love each other how they mutually agree.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #3

“Not a lot of people want to do it” or “I don’t want to do it.” This is not a justification for keeping something illegal. If anything, it is a reason laws against consensual adult relationships are wasteful and unnecessary. But we don’t deny minorities rights based on majority vote. Also, people would be surprised to know just how many people around them are in, or want to be in, or have been in, a relationship that is currently illegal or otherwise discriminated against.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html


Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #2

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #4

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Why? Many of the Same Reasons Anyone Else Does It

Vicky Wireko wrote at myjoyonline.com under "Reality Zone: Why would a father sleep with his biological daughter?"

Without yet getting to the text of the piece, the terms need to be defined. By "sleep," she no doubt means intercourse. But is she referring to rape or is she referring to consensual sex?  Rape and lovemaking are two different things. Rape should always be illegal. Lovemaking should never be illegal. But "biological daughter" can mean a woman the father didn't meet or didn't have a relationship with until she was an adult, or at least hasn't had a relationship with since an early age. Consanguinamory initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction has a different dynamic than consanguinamory growing from an existing sociological relationship.

Why would a father make love with his biological daughter? I'm talking about CONSENT ADULTS here.

For many of the the same reasons a man would have sex with any woman:

He's a heterosexual male and she's a receptive or initiating female he finds attractive.

They love each other.

It feels good and is fun. This is especially true when it comes to consanguinamory.

To bond.

To express love.

To have children.

Some of them have been brought together through Genetic Sexual Attraction, some of them haven't.

There are many reasons, but they shouldn't need to justify it to anyone else. Why is ultimately theirs to share, not anyone else's business. Perhaps a better question is why wouldn't/shouldn't he? Sex is not a bad thing. Those who think it is are probably doing it wrong.

What did Wireko have to say? Let's see...

Everything is certainly wrong with a father sleeping with his blood daughter.

 Does she give a reason?

It is repugnant apart from the fact that it is a taboo in our custom.

Ah, Discredited Arguments #1 and 2.

However, when a father’s love for his daughter straddles beyond parental love veering off to lust, to the extent of sexual abuse, it becomes horrendous.

Abuse and lovemaking are two different things. She goes on to write about abuse, without giving a good reason as to why consenting adults shouldn't be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage. Don't like it? Don't do it. But there ARE adult women in loving spousal-type relationships with their biological fathers, despite what prejudiced bigots think.

Please also see Intergenerational Relationships Can Work 



why would a woman sleep with her father why would a father and daughter have sex why would a parent have sex with an adult child why would a woman have sex with her father

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #2

“It goes against tradition.” So did the abolition of slavery. In reality, (adult) intergenerational, interracial marriages, same-gender marriages, polygamous or polyamorous marriages, and consanguineous marriages are nothing new. Some of these were entered into by prominent religious leaders and historical royalty. Regardless, a tradition of inequality is not a justification for continuing to deny equality.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #1

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #3 

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Consanguinamory is Not Sick

As this blog and others have repeatedly shown, there is no good reason to keep laws, discrimination, or stigmas against consanguinamory (consanguineous or consensual incest sex or relationships) that is consistently applied to other relationships. One of the grasping-at-straws assertions that one might make when all of their justifications for denying rights fails is "people who do that are sick" or "those relationships are dysfunctional."

Before we do anything else, let's make it clear that we're talking about consensual sex and relationships, not abuse. It's not fair to point to abuse, assault, child molestation, etc. by a close relative as an example of how "incest" is "sick".

Alleging psychological problems or mental illness is something best left to mental health professionals, such as a psychiatrist (a medical doctor) or a psychologist. The opinion of someone without such credentials and some experience should be suspect. So, if someone makes the claim that we should criminalize or otherwise discriminate against consanguinamory because the behavior is based on mental illness, they should be asked 1) for their credentials; 2) if they have personally conducted an evaluation of the individuals involved and the dynamics of their relationship, and; 3) if all relationships they personally think are based on mental illness should be likewise criminalized or discriminated against. Usually, calling consanguinamory "sick" is just a thinly veiled variation on Discredited Arguments #1 and 3.



You can find mental health professionals who will declare consanguinamory to be a sickness. Throughout history, you could find such individuals or studies and reports saying women shouldn’t use vibrators, being gay is a mental illness, masturbation leads in to insanity, wanting to be with someone of a different race is a problem… on and on it goes. To this day you can find psychologists who’ll insist that being gay is a mental problem and that taking certain steps during a child’s development will prevent them from “becoming” gay.

There are mentally ill people who have these attractions. There are dysfunctional relationships that are consanguinamorous. BUT, having consanguinamorous feelings or relationships is not necessarily a sign of illness or dysfunction. Some people assert it is, but they do not back up that claim. At most, they restate their claim another way, asserting that everyone should either pursue (heterosexual, monogamous) relationships with someone outside the family and not closely related (how close is too close for their approval varies) or should remain alone and celibate.

There are many mentally healthy people with these feelings. There are many healthy, functional relationships that are consanguinamorous or have involved consanguineous sex. The people who are living proof of this, due to laws or other forms of bigoted discrimination, aren't eager to sit down with a mental health professional, or law enforcement and tell them all about it. Medical and mental health professionals tend to deal with people who are having problems. Most people in consanguinamorous relationships or who are attracted to close relatives or family members, who are healthy and happy, do not visit doctors and therapists and volunteer that information to them. That is one of the problems with studies or saying something like "I don't know any that are healthy..." These relationships are common enough that everyone does know someone who is, or has been, involved. Most of the time, we're don't know everything that's going on, because people feel the need to keep secrets.

It is normal for minors close in age to experiment with each other. Coercion is problematic, but if it is not a matter of coercion and no harm is perpetrated, we're not talking about sickness. Genetic Sexual Attraction is also a normal response to the circumstances. And sometimes, for completely normal and healthy reasons, close relatives who have always been in each others lives get involved as adults.

There are a few places where consanguineous sex and mental illness do connect...

1) If someone, due to mental illness, acts out sexually with just about anyone, that may include close relatives. But again, most people who are. or have been, consanguinamorous are not part of this category.

2) People who are otherwise mentally healthy, who experience persecution, discrimination, prosecution, etc. due to having a consanguinamorous relationship, they may experience problems such as depression, anxiety, etc. This is a common harm of bigotry, and anyone concerned that consaguinamory is "sick" should note that often, the biggest problems experienced by consanguinamorous people is prejudice. If someone is truly concerned about the well being of others, they shouldn't perpetuate this. Being told constantly that your NORMAL attractions and desires need to be repressed and should subject you to ridicule, ostracism, and even imprisonment can cause people mental problems. What kind of mental state would you be in if you were torn from the person you love most in the whole world, publicly ridiculed and subjected to imprisonment? Learn how to avoid being part of that problem here.

3) If someone has been abused, they may find comfort in the safety of sexual intimacy or release with a close relative, not wanting to take the risk of being vulnerable with someone they're not certain loves them. Again, most consanguinamory isn't a result of a situation like this.

Maybe you have known some messed up people, and those people have engaged in consanguineous sex. But they also fed their dog, were good employees, etc. Does that make dog-feeding and being a good employee sick? Yes, some people who are attracted to close relatives need professional help. Others don’t. Being attracted to a close relative, by itself, is not necessarily a problem.

I personally know people who are mentally healthy, intelligent, attractive, and have no problem attracting sexual or romantic interest from others, and yet, they are very attracted to a close relative. I can guarantee you know some people like that, too. You’re just unaware of their attractions.

If you want to know what science has to say on these issues, read through the science tag of the Full Marriage Equality blogspot.

If you want to be part of the solution, you can! If you think you need help, see here.

UPDATE: See what Jane wrote about this at her blog.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #1

“It is disgusting.” Also known as the “ick” or “eww” factor, this explains why the person using the argument would not want to enter into the type of relationship or marriage or have the kind sex they want banned, but their own personal disgust is not a justification for preventing other people from doing something those other people want to do. Don’t want to have an (adult) intergenerational or interracial or same-gender or polyamorous or consanguineous marriage? Don’t have one. Some people are disgusted by the idea of heterosexual sex, or their parents having sex, but obviously this is not a justification to ban those things. Some people find prejudice and bigotry, a lack of marriage equality, disgusting. Meanwhile, the people in these relationships aren’t disgusted. How they love each other should be be up to them.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #2

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Genetic Sexual Attraction is Not a Mental Disorder or Character Flaw

Since Genetic Sexual Attraction or Genetic Attraction isn't something most of the masses know or understand, it's easy for there to be misunderstanding about it, especially some seemingly sadistic (and I'm not talking about the good kind of sadism) bigots decide to verbally beat up people who have experienced GSA.

Reunion GSA describes the intense, overwhelming attraction a postpubescent person may experience after being reunited or introduced to a postpubescent close genetic relative with whom they've had little-to-no contact since about age seven or before. It can happen when someone conceived through sperm donation meets someone else who had the same sperm donor. It can happen when a woman meets the genetic father who never knew she existed because she was conceived during a one night stand. It can happen when an adoptee reunites with a birth parent or finds an aunt or uncle or full or half sibling. It can happen when full or half siblings were separated because of divorce as young children and raised thousand of miles apart, barely seeing each other until they're in their late teens or older. There are many ways for this to happen.

It's about the phenomenon experienced by an individual. That person may not even tell anyone else about this. It may or may not be reciprocated. If reciprocated, sex often, but not always, results. Trying to dismiss GSA as some deceptive synonym for incest is ignorance or a willful attack on persecuted people, many of whom had absolutely no say in the circumstances that have resulted in GSA.

How do we know GSA exists? How does one prove ANY attraction exists? By analyzing what people communicate and how they're observed behaving. After decades of case after case, it's rather obvious to someone who bothers to look into the matter that GSA is real. GSA almost always involves pain, discomfort, and some hardships. It isn't like there's this big incentive for people to wake up one day and decide it would be fun to put themselves in the path of massive amounts of bigotry, including death threats. Adoption organizations and discussion forums warn about GSA. There is a GSA-focused forum where acting on GSA is discouraged. They know it's real. These are not people trying to pull a fast one on anyone. This is not some game. This is about lives and families.

GSA is not a mental disorder. It's not a character flaw. It's a normal, natural reaction experienced by many (certainly not all, probably not even most) people in a specific set of circumstances. We know this because GSA has been experienced by...

• People who didn't know they were close genetic relatives
• People who did know they were close genetic relatives and had never heard of GSA
• People who did know they were close genetic relatives and were warned about GSA
• People with a strong religious/moral/personal objection to the idea of consanguineous relationships
• People with no opinion about consanguineous relationships
• People who didn't know they were adopted or had a close genetic relative they hadn't met
• People who knew all along they were adopted or had a close genetic relative they hadn't met
• People raised with both biological parents
• People with generally happy and healthy childhoods
• People with horrible childhoods
• People who've had positive relationship experiences
• People who've had one bad relationship after another
• People happily in a closed relationship to which they've remained faithful
• People unhappy in their relationship
• People who have no attraction to any other genetic relative or close family member who isn't a genetic relative
• Highly educated and successful people
• People without higher education
• People who've been pillars of the community
• People who've had a lot of trouble with the law
• Men attracted to women
• Men attracted to men
• Women attracted to men
• Women attracted to women
• (People of any sexual orientation, really.)

As with any other segments of the population, there are some people who experience GSA who have a mental disorder, but GSA has nothing to do with having that mental disorder; many people without a serious mental disorder experience GSA. Sexual relationships initiated through GSA, like any other sexual relationship, might include people with serious character flaws, but that has nothing to do with GSA. Like any other grouping of relationships, there are some sexual relationships initiated through GSA that involve abuse or cheating, but most GSA-initiated relationships don't.

There are GSA-initiated consanguinamorous relationships that have been healthy, happy (aside from dealing with bigotry), and have lasted until death. We personally know some, and you do, too, whether you know it or not.

Yes, people can avoid acting on their attractions, no matter how strong. But if they want to be together and are right for each other, why should they have to avoid it? We're still waiting for a single good reason they should be thrown in prison or otherwise discriminated against, including denied their right to marry. Someone else's disgust or disapproval is not a good reason people should have to deny each other and be alone or "settle" for someone else (which, by the way, is severely unfair to the person who is unknowingly taken on as a consolation prize.)

"But you have billions of other people you can be with!" says the bigot.

So what???

The American white man, Mr. Richard Loving, had many white women in the surrounding population he could have courted and married. But he married Mildred Jeter, an American "black" woman. That was illegal in many states. Those laws were wrong, as have been the people who have attacked such relationships. Consenting adults should be free to have the relationships to which they mutually agree, no matter what phrases are used to describe the relationships.

Having consenting adults loving each other isn't a problem. It's a great thing. To quote the songwriter, what the world needs now is love. Don't engage in hate pollution.

If you've experienced GSA, know that you're not alone and there's nothing wrong with you (well, at least not based on experiencing GSA!) You have friends in us.

If someone you know is experiencing GSA, please be kind and supportive.

If you want to help all adults enjoy their rights, please do.

There is some help to be found.

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Can Adult Family Members Bond Too Much?

I answer a challenge at this blog's sister Tumblr.

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We Get Hate Mail

In our latest bus sighting, an anonymous comment came in to this blog’s sister Tumblr. The comment and response are here.

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