Hiding in Plain Sight

Most people who contact us who have experience with Genetic Sexual Attraction or consanguinamory do not want to have something specifically about them published on the blog. Others are featured in an interview. Rather than an interview, what is below is more of a monologue Anonymous gave me about her relationship and the backstory behind it. I would describe this as relationship that developed from reunion GSA.

There is no good reason people in these relationships should be criminalized or otherwise discriminated against. The prejudice against these relationships hurts people and causes problems.

Read for yourself what this woman has to say. Names have been changed to protect those involved...


*****

We've had to hide in plain sight for a long time.

My parents were married in the early 1980s after being together for a very short time. My dad failed to inform my mother that he had a son, John, from a previous wife, and daughter, Mary, from an affair.

John was a handful and his mother placed him in a boarding school. My mother, newly married, could not imagine willingly placing a child in an institution. She convinced my dad to go get him and for the next three years, they worked to mold him. Things were not meant to be. My brother struggled with addiction and tried different avenues of employment to fight his demons. 

He got married, then joined the military to support his pregnant wife.

I was born when John was 19. I had no memory of him except pictures and my mother's stories.

I did see him in the mid 1990s when he visited. I was still a very young girl, and saw him again in 2000 when he helped us move.

My mother died of cancer when I was still a minor. I'd write to John. We got to be friends. No one really knew my mom so it was nice to be able to talk to someone who did. Our letters were never sexual or anything like that. We just wrote back and forth. He would try to counsel me, which at times, was condescending to my 16-year-old self.

At 18, I got pregnant with my son right after high school graduation with a boy who took no responsibility. I moved in with my dad. John came to love with us. He loved my son the moment he laid eyes on him. He would play with him and watch him whenever I needed a sitter. My brother and I became great friends.  

In 2010, we had a very in-depth conversation and we just kissed. It did not feel wrong. If anything, a very strong attraction developed. This secret affair took place for the next few months with no one the wiser. 

We rented a place to get away from my suspicious family. John's adult sons moved in with us. They were taken aback by the relationship but they were happy for us. Or at least that's what they said. They ended up moving back out of state after a natural disaster nearly killed them.

I became pregnant with my second son, who has ocular albinism. He also has a rare benign tumor disorder. 

Our entire family on both sides know. Mary, our half sister, won't talk to us. It's too weird for her. As for the rest of our family, they couldn't care less. 

We keep each other out of trouble. I love him as much now as when we first connected in 2010. We purchased a home, three cars, have taken multiple vacations, have four dogs and have two steady jobs, and are raising two wonderful kids. Very few people know the truth about us. We don't want our kids taken away. We are good, kind, solid people but we are involved in a very old taboo relationship. I swear we are soulmates.

*****

It's good to have supportive family and friends.

If you want to read more about the issues of consanguineous lovers having children, read this.

There are millions of others "hiding in plain sight." You know some, whether you know it or not.

We wish Anonymous and John well on their relationship and hope they'll keep us updated.

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Do These Relationships Work?

A search phrase that once brought someone here on which I want to focus is…

"do incest relationships work"

To answer that, one must describe what means for a relationship to "work."

For some people, a relationship only "works" if it is heterosexual and always monogamous, involves religious and civilly affirmed marriage, produces (or at least raises) children, and lasts until one of the spouses dies.

For me, a relationship "works" if you are, as a whole and excluding artificial negatives like prosecution and discrimination, better off as a result of having been in the relationship. What makes you "better off" is up to you. It could be strictly that you enjoyed this person's company, but it could also be that you had children together, or helped each other grow as people, or made new friends through the other person, or helped each other's careers, or... well, any number of things. A relationship doesn't have to last until death to leave you better off.

A sure sign a relationship isn't working is if one of you is abusing the other, or you're abusing each other.

Over the years, I've been fortunate enough to talk with countless people who've been involved in consanguinamory. A few of them have even been generous enough to be interviewed. For most of the people I've talked with, the relationships have worked. If the consanguinamory is in the past, they have fond memories of the great times that were shared and the emotional growth they had as a result, even the sexual confidence they developed. For many, the relationship continues and provides times of unmatched bliss and intense intimacy, even shared parenting that they have found fulfilling.

So yes, they can and do work.

And, by the way, some of them are heterosexual, always monogamous, produce and raise great people, and last until death, and it is an injustice that they are still discriminated against under the law whether it not they check off any of those boxes.

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #7

“What’s next?” “Where do we draw the line?” What's wrong with letting consenting adults have the freedom to love each other as they want and agree? Who has a problem with that? Rather than coming up with convoluted schemes for which groups of people will get which rights, why not support the rights of all adults? It’s really quite simple:

The right to marry or to personal consortium shall not be abridged or denied by the United States or any state on account of sex, gender, sexual orientation, ancestry, consanguinity, or number of participants.

(Adapt that to your country, province, etc.)


There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #6 

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #8

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Sons and Daughters Day

It’s National Sons and Daughters Day, at least here in the US. 

Do you have reason to observe or celebrate?

If you’re an ally to your son or daughter, or you have a double bond with them, comment below and tell us about it. You can comment anonymously or signed-in. 

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Starting or Joining a GSA at Your School

Not only are school years a time for intense personal discovery and growth, but they are usually a time of intense pressures, including the pressure to conform, and bullying.

For those reasons, Gay-Straight Alliances, or Gender and Sexuality Associations, or Diversity clubs are critical.

If your school doesn't have such an organization, consider starting one. See here and here. As another school year ramps up, don't let your school be without such an organization!

If you school already has one, consider joining and/or supporting it. Student, faculty, and parental support are all needed.

Whether starting or joining, please do what you can to make the organization welcoming, inclusive, and accepting of all whose identity, sexual orientation, relationship orientation, or existing relationship (or that of their parents) makes them a target for discrimination or bullying.

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Anticipation of Participation with a Sibling Relation

People in consanguinamorous relationships are everywhere, though consanguinamorists tend to be closeted. Fortunately, some are willing to be interviewed for this blog. As a result, Full Marriage Equality has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

This is probably a first for this blog. This time, we're interviewing someone who is planning to inaugurate physical consanguinamory into their relationship.


*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourself.

Anonymous: I’m a 25 year old woman living in Tampa, Florida. I work as a hotel manager of sorts. I’m not there yet, but my boss sure does like to give me all the work related with the job title. I’m Hispanic and Jewish, which is not what most people expect, and my favorite hobbies are dancing, laying on my hammock, and yes it counts as a hobby, and watching soccer games just to hear the announcer say "Gooooal!" I like reading Russian literature, planting trees, Ikebana and collecting currencies of countries that no longer exist. 

FME: What's your gender, sexual orientation, and relationship orientation?

I'm female, and my sexual orientation is largely straight. I say largely because I have kissed a few girls here and there, but overall I’m straight. And so far I’ve been monogamist. 

FME: Who do you live with?

I currently live with my parents and my younger biological brother. The bother we are talking about is my full-blooded brother. 

FME: What was your childhood like? Was sexual diversity a topic discussed in your home? Can you describe your sexual awakening? How did you discover your orientation?

My childhood was rather typical of someone growing up under a very politically progressive household. Very few topics were taboo at the table. Our parents would always have "radical" professors over and lots of what would be deemed as "controversial" topics for kids to hear were spoken in plain sight. Of course our parents being very liberal, alternative sex was widely discussed in the home. Our parents were and still are quite committed to LGBTQ and other minority rights. 

As for my sexual awakening, it happened like it did for most people, around puberty. The first time I had sex I was 14 and the guy was 15. My parents found out, but rather than freak out they gave us condoms. No joke. 

How did I realize my sexual orientation? I don’t know, when you are attracted to the opposite sex you just feel it I guess. It’s the same for everyone, gay or straight, you just know. 

I first accepted consanguinamory as a right not unlike any other LGBTQ right around the same time I became sexually active. I felt that if I could enjoy the beauty of consensual intimacy with someone from my school without any repercussions, then why not siblings who felt the same urge? 

FME: Have you had experiences or feelings for other family members?

I’ve not had any such feelings for other family members. My younger brother obviously has such feelings for me, and I’m quite happy that he does. I don’t feel it’s a negative thing that he feels this way. In fact I find it quite healthy. He’s younger and hasn’t had much if any sexual experience, and his desire to gain such experience with his big sister is not only brave, as most would never come out of that closet, but unbelievably sweet. 

FME: Does anyone else know what is going on?

I don’t think anyone in the family knows of his true feelings for me. Yes our parents have seen us as being quite close, even physically, like me sitting on his lap or us just spooning together on the couch, but I doubt they’ve thought much past it. Sometimes they can be too absorbed in their own hobbies to notice us smooching or holding hands. Those are kisses without tongue.

FME: Have you been aware of anyone you know who has been involved in consanguinamory?

I met one girl in college who was in such a relationship with her dad. She initially panicked when she realized that I knew. But I reassured her that I had no intention whatsoever to out her, and that she could count on me to be her friend and confidant if she wanted. 

My other contact with people in consanguine relationships was when I traveled to Tel Aviv last year. Tel Aviv, by the way, is known as an LGBTQ Mecca. There, I spoke with perhaps half a dozen or so Israeli youth who told me that romantic sibling relationships were practically as common as any other relationship, especially in the very liberal and gay districts of Tel Aviv. 

FME: What are your plans?

I will let my brother have the time of his life with me. It would be wrong of me to deny him a deeper aspect of our sibling love, especially since he’s confessed his feelings and I have been supportive, at least vocally. 

FME: What do you expect that will be like?

Well, physically, I have a pretty good idea. Emotionally? I won’t know until I’ve tried it. I imagine our sibling bond, which is already very strong, will be further strengthened when we consummate our love. I want to envision an experience for him that will last him the rest of his life. That will guide his approach to love and lovemaking.

*****


It's illegal in Florida, and 46 other states, for siblings to have sex. Why? There’s no good reason. They love each other as siblings already. He has made it clear he wants an addition bond. She is willing to explore that possibility. Why is there a law against this?

You can read other interviews I have done here. As you'll see, there are people from all walks of life who are in consanguinamorous relationships.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.
If you want to be interviewed about your "forbidden" relationship, connect with me by checking under the "Get Connected" tab there at the top of the page or emailing me at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com.

If you know someone who is in a relationship like this, please read this. If you are having romantic or sexual feelings for a sibling or other close family member, this might help. If you think someone in your family has such feelings for you, this might help.

Thank you to Anonymous for doing this interview! We wish you well in your consanguinamorous relationship. We look forward to hearing how things progress.

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Why Men Choose Polyandry

Ruth asked at a Big Internet Portal's question-and-answer service...

Why do men choose polyandry(a woman with multiple husbands)?
What's the appeal? Is their jealousy? How does sex work? Is it akward knowing that the other husband has had sex with your wife?I'd like to understand how polyandrous relationships work, especially from mens point of view. Could you handle your wife having another husband?

Why do men choose a monogamous marriage? Why do men choose not to marry at all? Why do some men choose a polygynous marriage, or a group marriage? It’s going to be different for different people, but you can find some common reasons that pop up frequently. It is a combination of needs and wants, including social, emotional, financial, sexual, etc.

A man may choose polyandry because he is bisexual, or because he enjoys seeing his wife with another man, or because his wife has a higher libido than he does, or for reasons that are entirely nonsexual.

You can see the very good Best Answer if you keep reading.

I am married to a wonderful, challenging, sexy and creative woman. But, she has another lover, as well. That other lover, in this case, is a woman, too, and it's a fact that we all love each other, too.

This does not exactly equate to the question you asked, I know, but I think some of what I can tell you bears directly on your questions. Because make no mistake. Unlike the stereotypical FMF polygamous relationship, our relationship would be more accurately described as an MFF (or maybe FFM) polyamorous relationship. My wife has a husband and a wife, if you get my meaning, and the fact that her wife and I also love each other and sleep together (all three of us sleep together, that is) is incidental.

In my case, the appeal is that I love them both very much. But there are also some powerful benefits, and I'm sure those benefits would be true of a MFM relationship, as well.

1. Economic - We have our own home (which I built, myself, for the most part), and we have no mortgage. We have three incomes to fund our family.

2. We have three competent adults to help raise and nurture our children. Our three older kids have turned out to be remarkable, amazing and dedicated young people, and our two younger children seem to be headed the same way.

3. We are able to divide up the chores in terms of talent, temperment and time. Many hands make light work, as the saying goes.

4. We have three professional, intelligent minds to help solve problems, and to give differing persectives on answers to problems.

5. No matter how busy our schedules, there is almost always somebody around to lend a shoulder to cry on, or to snuggle with.

As to your other questions -

I'm not sure our relationship would work as well if we were not equal, loving partners. The fact that both of the Ladies involved are bisexual, and love each other as well as me is really the cement that bonds us. I am unsure how two heterosexual men would find the ability to bond, but I imagine it can happen.

Jealousy - well, in our case, there's not much opportunity, because we have one big bed, and we all sleep in it. But, early in our relationship, there might have been a twinge, now and again, when one of us would be at work and the other two could spend time together. We dealt with that problem head on, talking things through carefully, honestly and openly several times, and easing those primitive fears.

Why shouldn’t they be able to have their marriage recognized by law?

(This is an entry I bumped up because it is as timely as it was when it was originally posted.)

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NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #6

“Your relationship will hurt children.” This is usually said by people who themselves hurt children by denying rights to the parents of those children and telling the children that their parents are wrong for loving each other, perpetuating a stigma about the children and their families.

Don’t want children of these relationships to be hurt? Then stop hurting their families.

Adults having a relationship with each other, adults reproducing together, and adults raising children together are three different things. Adults can do any one of those without doing the other two, or any two of those without doing the third. Or, to put it another way, we’re talking about sex, relationships, and marriage, not about reproduction or adoption or parenting. Most sex does not result in a birth.

We don’t deny people their right to be together because they can’t or won’t reproduce. We don’t deny people their right to be together because they won’t be good candidates for adoption. We don’t test people on their parenting skills before we allow them to marry, but if we did, a lot of the prejudiced people who want to deny rights to others would fail, while many people who are still fighting for their relationship rights would pass with flying colors.

So this reason to oppose equality already fails. But for the sake of argument let’s assume there will be children.



A polyamorous relationship generally means a child is going to have more supervision  and additional role models in a cooperative environment. How is that supposed to be inferior to having bickering parents and stepparents from supposedly monogamous marriage? It is legal to reproduce and raise children alone, or with others in the home who aren't monogamous spouses. A woman can live with both fathers of her children, but can't legally marry both even though that is what everyone wants? Why deny polyamorous people protections, including marriage?

Anti-equality people claim a study shows children from polygynous families have "considerably lower" survival rates, but the data is from nineteenth century frontier areas and places in Africa where diseases and genocide are significant problems. The study doesn’t address polyandry, same-gender polygamy, polygamy consisting or multiple men and women, and other forms of polyamory. The other claim is that adolescent boys are driven from polygynous (again, just polygynous and not any other form of polyamory)  societies, but there are many adolescent boys driven from their heterosexual monogamous homes because they are gay, or boys who run away for the sake of personal freedom, rather than deal with familial or peer pressure to adhere to certain rules and expectations. Or they can’t stand their “monogamous” parent’s new girlfriend or boyfriend.

In a consanguinamorous relationship, adopted or step-parented children are not going to suffer in comparison to nonconsanguineous relationships.

Many people wrongly say that any children born to consanguineous parents will have birth defects, and that this is a good reason to ban such relationships. However, most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. It is entirely legal for people with obvious or hidden serious genetic diseases to date, have sex, marry, and have children. Why should healthy consanguineous lovers be denied their rights? Unless someone is willing to deny reproductive rights and medical privacy to others and force everyone to take genetic tests and bar carriers and the congenitally disabled and women over 35 from marrying or having children, then equal protection principles prevent this from being a justification to bar this freedom of association and freedom to marry, let alone reproductive rights.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too. But there are people born with problems who have made great contributions to the world, and genetically healthy people born to close relatives are common enough that we all know some, whether we know their true genetic parentage or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. I personally know children from such relationships who are healthy and bright; adorable children and attractive adults.

Where does this knowing what is best for the children of other people stop? Should single parents lose custody? Should we compel pregnant women to get a specific kind of prenatal care? Are we going to genetically screen and then sterilize people with genetic problems? There are children being raised right now by people who want to get married, and yet are denied their right to marry.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #5

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny Love #7 

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National Sisters Day

Apparently it is National Sisters Day.

So, to all of you sisters out there, happy you!

As always, feel free to comment with appreciation for your sister.

We've heard from, and about, some wonderful sisters since we started this blog, including sisters who are allies and sisters who are lovers.

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